[Tim van der Leeuw]

I use modi 3 daily in a nearfield monitor and HP setup. It does just as well in 2ch as it does in HP use. It's no slouch, especially considering the price. It's a definite upgrade over most phone/tablet dacs, and those in older home electronics.

In my varied setups I find that I can easily distinguish voices, instrument position, separation, soundstage, etc. Depth is better done by modi multibit, but nothing is perfect. more people then not seem to like it, but it surely isn't for everyone. Nothing is.

I'm sure the Modi 3 is an upgrade over whatever DAC is in laptops or phones. I'm blown away every time by the sound of my Jotunheim with 4490 D/S DAC card over my headphones, compared to the direct output of both laptops and of the RadSone ES100 which I have. It's a balanced DAC but otherwise it's basically the same as found in the Modi 3, so I had perhaps too high expectations?

For 2-channel, in a medium sized room, it was however outclassed by the other DACs that we heard before it. I don't know what DACs Bluesound uses in their equipment, but NAIM definitely made some efforts to make a good DAC and it shows.
I'm still holding out for the improved Schiit stack to win out in the rematch.

 

[HK_sends]

The moment transparent aluminum (Star Trek, The Voyage Home [nonsense from Professor Scott...movie-scene-link]) becomes available, and this device is bolted into it, I'll want that too!

Dude, you'e one step closer to getting your wish!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aluminium_oxynitride

https://ceramics.org/ceramic-tech-t...ransparent-aluminum-from-star-trek-to-reality

Cheers!
-HK sends

 

[Brubacca]

Thanks for your reply.

What makes the Gungnir better to your ears, than the DAC in the NAIM? I'm curious to know.

Interesting tidbit of information also on the digitizing of analog inputs by the NAIM.

Not a fair comparison? Yes, that's in the end what I concluded too, because the comparison was not just an amp, or just a DAC. It was one system (NAIM Atom Unity), vs another system (Ragnarok 2 + Bluesound Node 2i), and Ragnarok 2 + Modi 3.

Of course I need all components of that system and as a whole, the NAIM system sounded really good. I wanted the Ragnarok to sound better, but I had to conclude that _in the given combination_ it just about lost... Hence me diving into what caused these differences and coming up with: the DAC. And going for a search for another DAC to match the Rag with.

Bifrost 2 hopefully arrives on Tuesday. Then at home I still have old speakers, the new speakers will come later, so at home I won't instantly be able to try out the full potential of it, but ... looking forward to making the comparison.

Gumby more full sound. Sweeter more natural top end, and a bit more bass than the UnitiQute DAC. I find the multibit sound to have more natural sound for instruments. Best way to describe is from the Norah Jones song sinking soon. On UnitiQute DAC and Rega Dac there is a squawking in the song. Its there If you have the song I'm sure you can hear it, First time I heard on a Multibit DAC (Naim CDx2 CD Player) I realized that is a muted trumpet. On Gumby it sounds like an actual muted trumpet in the room. There are other instances, but that was the most striking to me. Instruments on a Multibit sound like real instruments in the room. Regular DACs sound like copies of instruments. Not always good copies.

I think you will really enjoy Bifrost 2.

 

[treecloud]

A lot going on here, I'm trying to understand...

The analog outputs of the Node 2i were fed into the Ragnarok, the optical output into the NAIM.

Presumably then you were listening to the DAC + analog gain stage of the Node 2i into the Ragnarok, but only the Node 2i DAC into the NAIM.

With all music, the NAIM Atom Unity sounded better than the Ragnarok 2 + Node 2i ... More musical. Richer. Better in the low end. A tad more detail.

Which could be explained in some part by the NAIM having a cleaner signal , no analog gain stage added to the signal chain.

However, when we hooked up the analog outputs of the Node 2i to the NAIM Atom and started to compare optical vs analog input into the NAIM Atom, to compare the DACs of Node 2i and the NAIM ... the conclusion was that all that extra musicality richness came from the NAIM's DAC.

But it sounds like you weren't comparing just the DACS, as above. The analog output of the Node2i will have an analog gain stage in the circuit. It's at least as (or more) likely you were hearing degradation from the analog gain stage.

At this point we hooked up the Modi 3 as DAC. The optical signal from the Node 2i went into the Modi 3, and the analog out of Modi 3 went into the Ragnarok 2.

And the music fell flat on it's face.

Now back in the day, and I'll admit I have not kept up with what NAIM is doing, NAIM was known to be more dynamic and "musical" than other high end amplification, but not as refined. And if I recall NAIM amps did not perform flawlessly in terms of technical measurements. Could it be NAIM has deviations from linearity that are euphonic?

This was much worse than the other DACs. Rounded off highs -- not bad per se, but it resulted in lost detail. Soundstaging? Imaging? Gone.....Lots of detail was lost.

So I'm very sorry to say, the Modi 3 might be a fine headphone DAC -- the D/S DAC card in my Jotunheim performs great with headphones -- but to my ears it has no place in a hi-fi system.

Well don't be sorry, it was your anecdotal experience. But there are many other anecdotes out there that reach the opposite conclusion with Modi 3 into some very respectable 2 channel speaker systems.

Meanwhile it should also be noted "true baseline" comparisons of DACs should be exactly level matched, with each DAC getting the same input signal, and driving the same amp (and speakers). Ideally this will also be on a switcher to allow instant (and longer) comparisons.

BTW I'm not trying to say level matched A/B comparisons are the end all and be all, there could possibly be resolution limits in blinded test of perception we don't know yet, but I am saying they are a reference baseline from which comparisons can begin.

PS: Something might be gained by adding a Loki in between the Node 2i streaming DAC, and the Ragnarok 2. But they're currently in backorder so I won't be able to try that out before the next listening test.

Something is always gained by adding a Loki to a system...it's a beautiful thing

PS 2: After some emails back and forth with Dennis from Schiit Europe I ordered the Bifrost 2. Looking forward to trying it out.

Ordering the Bifrost 2 sounds like a very good idea, I'm sure you will love it!

 

[earnmyturns]

Gumby more full sound. Sweeter more natural top end, and a bit more bass than the UnitiQute DAC. I find the multibit sound to have more natural sound for instruments.

I've owned a UnitiQute V1. I never compared it carefully side-by-side with Schiit-based chains, and my sound memory is likely fallible, but what I recall was a mostly polite, listenable rendering without much presence in the bass, a bit of reediness in the highs, relatively rounded transients. Multiple chains I've owned based on Bifrost multibit, Yggdrasil, Holo Spring, or Metrum Onyx were much more involving: solid bass, better transients, more micro-detail. Still own the Yggdrasil (now A2), which pairs beautifully with my home headphone amps.

 

[jimmers]

Here's one of naim's older DAC designs, and I believe they've kept the same design philosophy since: https://www.naimaudio.com/sites/default/files/products/downloads/files/naim_dac_august_2009.pdf. Schiit's higher-end multibit designs with a dedicated DSP filter seem closer to that than the Modi 3.

As you say the link refers to older high end Naim DACs, they used the expensive PCM1704 (multibit) DAC chip with a Naim DSP upsampling Filter,

... NAIM Unity Atom (streamer, DAC, amp all-in-one. Class A/B amp, 40 wpc into 8 ohm. DAC is unknown, "a SHARC chip is all I could find about it). ...

the Uniti Nova has the DSP but uses a PCM1792A "advanced segment" DAC (like my STX sound card ) the Uniti Atom uses the lower spec PCM1791A

as far as I can tell

 

[G0rt]

All Hail Discordia! Fnord!
.

Hail Eris! Fnord!

 

[Tim van der Leeuw]

Here's one of naim's older DAC designs, and I believe they've kept the same design philosophy since: https://www.naimaudio.com/sites/default/files/products/downloads/files/naim_dac_august_2009.pdf. Schiit's higher-end multibit designs with a dedicated DSP filter seem closer to that than the Modi 3.

Very interesting to read, thanks.

 

[Brubacca]

I've owned a UnitiQute V1. I never compared it carefully side-by-side with Schiit-based chains, and my sound memory is likely fallible, but what I recall was a mostly polite, listenable rendering without much presence in the bass, a bit of reediness in the highs, relatively rounded transients. Multiple chains I've owned based on Bifrost multibit, Yggdrasil, Holo Spring, or Metrum Onyx were much more involving: solid bass, better transients, more micro-detail. Still own the Yggdrasil (now A2), which pairs beautifully with my home headphone amps.

I agree with your description of the Qute v1. Rings true to me and I just spent the last week listening to it. I'm mostly using the Qute as an Amp now. Its a damn good amp.

 

[earnmyturns]

I'm mostly using the Qute as an Amp now. Its a damn good amp.

It's a pretty good amp, but I ended selling it when I concluded that it was underpowered for the rather inefficient KEF LS50s. Moved to a BelCanto C7R for a while, which was a lot punchier, on the way to a Hegel H360 -- heavy iron -- with also inefficient KEF Reference 1s when we moved to a bigger space, the first amp-speaker setup that I owned that did full justice to the Yggdrasil. Now, after the Yggdrasil is on headphone duty, with an all-Linn speaker system for an even bigger space.

 

[Derrick Swart]

Hail Eris! Fnord!

if you read this quickly: Harrison Ford

 

[G0rt]

if you read this quickly: Harrison Ford

The Illuminati have always been with us...

 

[Tim van der Leeuw]

Presumably then you were listening to the DAC + analog gain stage of the Node 2i into the Ragnarok, but only the Node 2i DAC into the NAIM.

At first, we fed the optical output of the Node 2i into the NAIM, so no DAC involved at that point.
To compare DACs on same amp, we fed the analog output of the Node 2i into the NAIM eventually, so that was the DAC + analog gain stage of the Node 2i into the NAIM.

But it sounds like you weren't comparing just the DACS, as above. The analog output of the Node2i will have an analog gain stage in the circuit. It's at least as (or more) likely you were hearing degradation from the analog gain stage.

That is a good point, but in the end we're listening to the system as a whole and for any standalone DAC, it will have an analog gain stage so I think it's only fair to incorporate this as part of the comparison.

I think my conclusion is still valid: the DAC component is the primary cause of the differences we heard between the Ragnarok 2, and the NAIM Atom.

Now back in the day, and I'll admit I have not kept up with what NAIM is doing, NAIM was known to be more dynamic and "musical" than other high end amplification, but not as refined. And if I recall NAIM amps did not perform flawlessly in terms of technical measurements. Could it be NAIM has deviations from linearity that are euphonic?

That could well be, that could explain why the NAIM sounded more "musical" to our ears than the Node 2i + Ragnarok combination. Something like that could be tuned with equalization, or in other words, a Loki. (Mini or Midi )

Meanwhile it should also be noted "true baseline" comparisons of DACs should be exactly level matched, with each DAC getting the same input signal, and driving the same amp (and speakers). Ideally this will also be on a switcher to allow instant (and longer) comparisons.

Unfortunately the situation did not allow for more proper blind testing. My wife did her best not to pay attention to what devices and speakers were being switched in and out and just listen to the music, and when we switched in the Modi 3 she had no idea what we were doing -- she was just responding to what she heard.

Of course it's still not a blind test by any means.

Something is always gained by adding a Loki to a system...it's a beautiful thing

Unfortunately backordered, but that only gives me the chance to wait for a Loki Midi (Bifrost-sized) to come up for sale...

Ordering the Bifrost 2 sounds like a very good idea, I'm sure you will love it!

It should arrive tomorrow, looking forward to it.

 

[Derrick Swart]

At first, we fed the optical output of the Node 2i into the NAIM, so no DAC involved at that point.
To compare DACs on same amp, we fed the analog output of the Node 2i into the NAIM eventually, so that was the DAC + analog gain stage of the Node 2i into the NAIM.



That is a good point, but in the end we're listening to the system as a whole and for any standalone DAC, it will have an analog gain stage so I think it's only fair to incorporate this as part of the comparison.

I think my conclusion is still valid: the DAC component is the primary cause of the differences we heard between the Ragnarok 2, and the NAIM Atom.



That could well be, that could explain why the NAIM sounded more "musical" to our ears than the Node 2i + Ragnarok combination. Something like that could be tuned with equalization, or in other words, a Loki. (Mini or Midi )


Unfortunately the situation did not allow for more proper blind testing. My wife did her best not to pay attention to what devices and speakers were being switched in and out and just listen to the music, and when we switched in the Modi 3 she had no idea what we were doing -- she was just responding to what she heard.

Of course it's still not a blind test by any means.


Unfortunately backordered, but that only gives me the chance to wait for a Loki Midi (Bifrost-sized) to come up for sale...


It should arrive tomorrow, looking forward to it.

most fair would be of course to bring in a loaded Ragnarok, one power supply for multiple functions

 

[audio philestine]

A handful of products have been moved to "Last Call" on the Schiit website:

Wyrd, Asgard (2), Eitr, Jil

Get 'em while they last...