Schiit Happened: The Story of the World's Most Improbable Start-Up
Sep 5, 2019 at 9:59 AM Post #50,221 of 145,579
Is the Sol lossless audio format or lossy....or hi-res?
analog.jpg
 
Sep 5, 2019 at 10:09 AM Post #50,222 of 145,579
I know you were not asking me but it seems the obvious difference is tubes are generally external, protected from lethal voltages, and designed to be changed by a user. Opamps are not.

Further, having built the Whammy (likely the DIY Amp referenced earlier); while it uses 8 pin DIP OPAMP sockets there are a limited number of opamps in the 8 pin PDIP form factor that can be used just for the very simple reason that they vary widely in which pins serve which I/O function. This is before you even begin to consider power tolerances and other more detailed specs.
Think about what happens if you stick the wrong octal tube in to an octal socket in your Freya, not pointing any fingers here. :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:

Or mis-orientate (Army-ism) your loctal tube into your dual mono triode adapter in an unnamed hybrid amp. Pointing finger at self on this one, but hey I thought the whole point of the loctal was to prevent mis-insertion. But in my case no harm was done due to quick response and robust amp design.

If you release the magic smoke the audio joy goes away.
 
Sep 5, 2019 at 10:15 AM Post #50,223 of 145,579
Several of those adjectives come to mind..."Clear, Open, Clean, Transparent, Articulate, Quiet, and Holographic".
Welcome to the club! I was one of the earliest Unison USB "secret" testers, on my Yggdrasil A2. After early firmware issues were fixed, I never looked back. I sold my expensive AES-output streamer and used instead the much cheaper Allo USBridge streamer I had. The quality with Unison USB and the cheap streamer was noticeably better than AES+expensive streamer according to my patient wife who helped with the A/B tests. My current preferred Yggdrasil chain is Allo USBridge > Yggdrasil > Eddie Current Aficionado > ZMF Verité silkwood, an amazing auditory treat every time I come back to it from my frequent travels.
 
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Sep 5, 2019 at 10:20 AM Post #50,224 of 145,579
In both my big rig and HP systems it makes a very noticeable improvement, which I assume is mostly due to isolating the crap-laden USB bus signal as it converts to the S/PDIF format. Is Unison a step up from that even?
I've owned Eitr and I am one of the Unison USB testers. In my (subjective) judgment, the answer is definitely yes, at least with the speaker and headphone amps I've used with my Yggdrasil.
 
Sep 5, 2019 at 10:21 AM Post #50,225 of 145,579
Further, having built the Whammy (likely the DIY Amp referenced earlier); while it uses 8 pin DIP OPAMP sockets there are a limited number of opamps in the 8 pin PDIP form factor that can be used just for the very simple reason that they vary widely in which pins serve which I/O function. ...

In my experience most 8 pin DIP dual op amps likely to be used have the same pin out as the 5532

Always an interesting read
http://nwavguy.blogspot.com/2011/08/op-amps-myths-facts.html
 
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Sep 5, 2019 at 10:23 AM Post #50,226 of 145,579
An EITR 2, with Unison, would have been stellar IMO
Would defeat the purpose. Eitr was an experimen tin transformer-based isolation for DACs with better S/PDIF coax than USB receiver (like all pre-Unison Schiit DACs). With Unison, going through S/PDIF to get to the DAC would be a downgrade. IMHO, based on listening to Eitr and Unison-using chains.
 
Sep 5, 2019 at 10:53 AM Post #50,227 of 145,579
Sep 5, 2019 at 12:05 PM Post #50,228 of 145,579
[re: opamps (my little story)]

Remember thinking why not on an old preamp (got for free) designed the year Madonna's Papa Don't Preach came out, then subsequently cheapened / watered down until 2005:

https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/analog-line-level/180670-adcom-gfp-715-a.html#post5906185

Seems like a diff world today re: opamps, wouldn't want to mess with them (personally) anymore, unless I was designing a circuit in the first place around one and understanding what's going on.
 
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Sep 5, 2019 at 12:32 PM Post #50,229 of 145,579
The Sol setup video is great. I went from being skeptical of being able to perform all the set-up steps to this looks like fun, I can't wait to do it.

The thing I am puzzling with is the location of the motor. One can measure the "about 1" " distance readily, but what if someone thinks 1 1/8" or 1 1/4" is close enough? Are those outside the intended tolerance? Personally, I would want it as dead nuts to 1" as my eyes will enable, but there could be folks who may not be as critical.
 
Sep 5, 2019 at 12:40 PM Post #50,230 of 145,579
[re: opamps]

Remember thinking why not on an old preamp (got for free) designed the year Madonna's Papa Don't Preach came out, then subsequently cheapened / watered down until 2005:

https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/analog-line-level/180670-adcom-gfp-715-a.html#post5906185

Seems like a diff world today re: opamps, wouldn't want to mess with them (personally) anymore, unless I was designing a circuit in the first place around one and understanding what's going on.
The Whammy is a 2015 design I believe and the design of Wayne Colburn of Pass Labs so it is relatively new. Like many things in audio, if someone tells me they can hear the difference between op-amps, it is certainly easy enough to set up a blind listen and let them show me how well they do. :smile_phones: I have a hard time doing such things unless I can A/B the devices and I am more likely to hear differences in tubes and occasionally output capacitors, op-amps are another matter.
 
Sep 5, 2019 at 1:07 PM Post #50,233 of 145,579
I don't see any reason not to swap op-amps. I think this is also a valid experience.

The only difference I see is that due to the limited life of tubes swapping them is a necessity, so the amplifier will have a reasonable life before it needs to be fixed by a technician. Being able to try different brands and models of tubes is a welcomed side effect. For op-amps there is no need to, but if possible is also a welcomed feature.

My point is that considering the little I know about schiit, rolling op-amps is not something Jason is willing to do, specially condiering someone would need to open the amplifier, and he is really against that for safety reasons.
You don’t want trouble in after sales
 
Sep 5, 2019 at 1:14 PM Post #50,234 of 145,579
Regarding tubes and op-amps:

1. Tubes have to be swappable because they have a finite lifespan. Also, some people like trying different kinds of tubes. As long as the parameters are similar and the pinout is same, that's fine, but we do get a reasonable amount of service due to wrong tubes. This is expected and accounted for (translation: the products cost more); tube electronics take more care and feeding than solid state. As I've always said, "If you want certainty, you don't want tubes."

2. When we use op-amps, their application is fixed--that is, we design around the op-amp parameters. Swapping another op-amp in may (a) degrade performance, (b) cause something nasty like oscillation, or (c) release the magic smoke (if it's, say, a single op-amp you swapped in for a dual.) So, if we did socketed op-amps, we'd have to plan for that (meaning the product costs more) and we'd also have the cost of the thru-hole socket, and the cost of socket failures, and the customer service for those who bent a pin on their $50 op-amp because the socket was too tight (meaning the product costs more.)

So, you can either trust we know what we're doing with the op-amps we use, and enjoy the products we make with them, or you can choose another product that's designed for swapping. No judgement. Your choice.
 
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Sep 5, 2019 at 1:15 PM Post #50,235 of 145,579
Op-amps themselves are very complex circuits, with several stages, often designed for very high open loop gain, low power consumption, etc. If you look at the typical pinout for 8-pin dual op-amps, they have two power supply pins, and for each "amplifier" 3 more pins (an inverting input, a non-inverting input, and an output pin), but no ground. Parasitic capacitances and inductances between the main circuit board and the discrete "opamp" may effect circuit operation / stability. The inductance of one-half-inch of wire or circuit board trace can form a resonant LC circuit with the power supply bypass capacitors at megahertz frequencies, for instance, injecting high frequency noise onto the power supply of the discrete op amp module.

Properly selected for the application, and with careful circuit board layout, commercial high performance op-amps (better spec-wise than NE5532, and a lot more expensive) like the ones used by Mike and Jason as buffers or I-V stages on the DAC chip outputs can sound pretty nice.
Is that mostly a matching issue, i.e. opamp A in a given amp doesn't sound great, just like compatible tubes might not sound great in a given amp, or is there more to it? Are the megahertz resonances the "oscillations" I have read about? Is there a concern that your amp is becoming a radio transmitter and the FCC might knock on your door? Is there a concern about damaging the amplifier or the opamp?

It has been suggested elsewhere that nobody without access to an oscilloscope should swap opamps. Is it conceivable that an amp designed for swapping opamps could come with a self check and simply shuts down with a warning LED lighting up if there's an issue? I'm assuming that wouldn't add all that much to the overall cost.

The only difference I see is that due to the limited life of tubes swapping them is a necessity, so the amplifier will have a reasonable life before it needs to be fixed by a technician. Being able to try different brands and models of tubes is a welcomed side effect. For op-amps there is no need to, but if possible is also a welcomed feature.
Definitely. I'm thinking normally you would not want to build an amp with big holes in the top, through which vital components could be removed by the user at any point, even while running. Components that potentially run quite hot indeed. But since it's "necessary" (there are amps and DACs that just have tubes inside, without making it easy to swap them, so evidently it's not strictly necessary), you do it anyway. Well, if that is okay with tubes, then why not maybe with opamps? Though Ableza raises a good point below.

My point is that considering the little I know about schiit, rolling op-amps is not something Jason is willing to do
I'm okay with them not doing it, but I definitely would like to understand better why the risk assessment is different compared to allowing it for tubes. Tube amps with user accessible tubes are not entirely un-mad.

specially condiering someone would need to open the amplifier, and he is really against that for safety reasons.
That's where Schiit would have a chance to distinguish themselves from all products with swappable opamps that I have seen: make the opamps accessible without needing to open the amp, just like the tubes are (or the modules in the Bifrost 2). I.e. provide a removable card with a DIP8 socket or two, or an opening just like for tubes, though possibly with a raised socket because opamps tend to be rather shallow, and make either approach sufficiently big to have flexibility about the various shapes and sizes opamps come in:

01a Side (cropped).jpg 01b Top (cropped).jpg

Even the Burson Fun, from a company that makes several types of discrete opamps, has to be opened by removing four screws in order to swap opamps. Makes the design cheaper, of course. And because of the point Ableza raises below, there would be a bigger incentive than for tubes to at least make it possible to cover the hole again after installing an opamp, at least for the designs without a case around the opamp's PCB.

I know you were not asking me but it seems the obvious difference is tubes are generally external, protected from lethal voltages, and designed to be changed by a user. Opamps are not.
That they are usually external is probably owed more to their size, since otherwise the chassis has to be significantly bigger (at least if you want to support a variety of compatible tubes), and you'd have to dissipate the added heat somehow. Tubes generally need high voltages, but opamps operate far below 50 V from what I have seen. So it would still be iffy if you could touch an opamp while the amp is running, but less so than with the triple-digit voltages typically used in tube amps.
Accessible hot tubes are a possible danger to you, your kids and your pets (hence the guards on many tube amps), though possibly a less severe one than touching an open circuit - that is a good point. Most opamps do not come wrapped in plastic cases like the Burson opamps, fragile as they can be (three of the eight I had access to came apart without trying, two with a newer design with just one plastic part):

03a Old Design Front (cropped).jpg 03b Old Design Side (cropped).jpg

The case makes it difficult to touch the PCB, but the pins are still exposed - but that's the same as with tubes. Is it generally advisable to take ESD precautions when touching the pins of tubes? It's a concern for opamps, but I'm wondering whether an opamp with a case like the Bursons is still more vulnerable to ESD than a tube.

Further, having built the Whammy (likely the DIY Amp referenced earlier); while it uses 8 pin DIP OPAMP sockets there are a limited number of opamps in the 8 pin PDIP form factor that can be used just for the very simple reason that they vary widely in which pins serve which I/O function. This is before you even begin to consider power tolerances and other more detailed specs.
Think about what happens if you stick the wrong octal tube in to an octal socket in your Freya, not pointing any fingers here. :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:

Or mis-orientate (Army-ism) your loctal tube into your dual mono triode adapter in an unnamed hybrid amp. Pointing finger at self on this one, but hey I thought the whole point of the loctal was to prevent mis-insertion. But in my case no harm was done due to quick response and robust amp design.
Exactly my point, we already accept that kind of risk with tube amps, so the precedent has been set. :)

Thanks for the input, everyone!
 
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