Schiit Happened: The Story of the World's Most Improbable Start-Up
Jan 9, 2016 at 12:52 PM Post #9,691 of 145,768
   
So the 'livelier' sound you hear has pretty much nothing to do with the ADCs.  It's all in the mic choices, the acoustics, the EQ/DSP/DRC, and in the mix.  Although, in the case of a front row seat, you should be hearing more direct acoustic sound and less from the PA system.
That's why I get front row seats whenever I can...
ECM's house style has pretty much nothing to do with their ADC/DAC choice.  It's all in the other aspects. Their 1970s all-analog recordings have the same ghostly sound.
Good point on their old analog recordings (which I've not listened to directly in decades, since I went all digital for convenience)
The lack of obsession over ADCs isn't due to 'tradition', it's due to the ADC being viewed as a solved problem.  Think of it this way: once upon a time, IT guys cared a lot about the NICs installed in PCs because of issues relating to drivers, IRQ conflicts, etc. 3Com built a huge business around it.  Now nobody worries about such issues.  They're solved problems and everybody uses whatever NIC/WiFi chip is built into the motherboard of the computer. It's not because of tradition, it's because it's not worth worrying about.  They're all viewed as good enough.
Point taken, but "a solved problem" for whom? The (non-audio) example you give could be used to argue the opposite: current consumer PCs are a can of cheap worms that are only accepted because they are cheap and the customer has no way to know what causes all those mysterious crashes. In the audio production case, I can grant that producers can see their problems as solved, in the sense that there's no market pressure on them given the expectations of most consumers (white earbuds). Heck, we even have things like http://www.mattmontag.com/music/universals-audible-watermark without much outcry. Problems are "solved" with respect to particular utility functions, but the utilities of different market participants are sometimes quite different.

 
Jan 9, 2016 at 1:01 PM Post #9,692 of 145,768
I was doing some work for Bosch Automotive near the Schwarzwald (Black Forest) about 10 years back. Used to go to work at 6 AM, finish by 3 PM, go biking till 7, then drink lots of beer (Bitterbier) till 11. Every single day. Then do 20 mile treks every weekend. The best single 3 years of my life!! No TV, movies. Just outside all the time. Treks, beer and concerts. Basically spoiled cities for me.

Amazing isn't it? As a teen, though, cities were attractive because I was a weird, art guy. Cities had more girls that were into that. I had no idea what the trade offs were. Worse yet, my first city living experience was in Savannah, GA. I don't recommend it, even as cities go. LA was better. Barely.
 
Jan 9, 2016 at 1:04 PM Post #9,693 of 145,768
 
I saw this recently.
 
http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/manufacture/0915/Andrew_Jones_Elac_Article.htm
 
Sorry to be off topic.

Must. See. Andrew Jones new speakers!

Seriously though, any links?

http://www.cnet.com/products/elac-debut-b6/
Must Hear these speakers. I have a Pair of B6's. Definitely a heavy hitter in this price point. They will be around for a while, At least Until Mr. Jones Has Decided to incorporate those ribbon tweeters Elac uses in the EU in his next series. I have not heard anything in this price range that sounds like these. They are Driven With a Emotive Fusion Flex. Bimby Handles the Digital side and A Mani on the analog. Valhalla 2 does pre amp function.
Bazile, Brought it back on topic of good Schiit for you.
beerchug.gif

 
Jan 9, 2016 at 1:06 PM Post #9,694 of 145,768
http://www.cnet.com/products/elac-debut-b6/

Must Hear these speakers. I have a Pair of B6's. Definitely a heavy hitter in this price point. They will be around for a while, At least Until Mr. Jones Has Decided to incorporate those ribbon tweeters Elac uses in the EU in his next series. I have not heard anything in this price range that sounds like these. They are Driven With a Emotive Fusion Flex. Bimby Handles the Digital side and A Mani on the analog. Valhalla 2 does pre amp function.
Bazile, Brought it back on topic of good Schiit for you. :beerchug:

I know nothing of speakers. Why is a pre-amp necessary?
 
Jan 9, 2016 at 1:23 PM Post #9,695 of 145,768
I know nothing of speakers. Why is a pre-amp necessary?

+1 great question. I also no nothing about speakers, and where pre-amps fit into the audio chain.
 
Jan 9, 2016 at 1:23 PM Post #9,696 of 145,768
I know nothing of speakers. Why is a pre-amp necessary?

Traditional power amplifiers do not have volume controls and only have one input. A Preamp allows Multipe sources to be connected and switched as well as give you volume control, many are active so they may help ( or hurt the sound).
 
Integrated amplifiers that are popular today combine Tuners, Preamps and Amplfiers in one. When you go to Best buy or the like you very rarely see them (preamps) for sale because most people like the all in one integrated option.
 
Now to head off the possible questions about the Valhalla is not a true preamp questions.
 
This particular Emotiva amp does have a volume control and 2 inputs, but I leave it on maximum volume and use it strictly as a power amp.
( issues with another one i wont get into here is why I ended up with this one). I use the Valhalla's Volume control. For me using the Valhalla as a preamp is really because I wanted a little of the tube warmth as such is my personal preference. I don't care much for cold, flat music. I don't find it enjoyable. I use a sys for switching. This is My Hodge Podge way of doing it and it works well for me at this point.
 
Jan 9, 2016 at 1:25 PM Post #9,697 of 145,768
In the audio production case, I can grant that producers can see their problems as solved, in the sense that there's no market pressure on them given the expectations of most consumers (white earbuds). Heck, we even have things like http://www.mattmontag.com/music/universals-audible-watermark without much outcry. Problems are "solved" with respect to particular utility functions, but the utilities of different market participants are sometimes quite different.

 
Let me try to explain it in a different way.
 
Audio engineers know that there is as much art as science in what they're doing.  They're also there to make a product, whether a live performance or a recording.  There are usually time pressures involved.
 
This all leads to a certain level of pragmatism. Some examples:
 
1. In a live venue, changes to microphones, acoustics, and DSP/EQ are not subtle.  They are the heavy weight tools used to 'fix' the sound of the venue and performance.  
 
Any differences in amps, cables, and DACs/ADCs are masked by these much more powerful tools.  And you can't fix venue issues by futzing around at the edges of sonic perception.
 
2. In a recording / mastering setting, there is usually a DAW in which there will be liberal use of all sorts of manipulation of the sound (EQ, filters, compression, general mixing of the tracks.)
 
Want more bass? Crank up gain on the bass track.  Want more detail? Crank up the presence region in the EQ.  
 
3. They all know that there is no absolute standard in audio because the transducers are flawed.  
 
Microphones and loudspeakers are blatantly non-linear and distorted compared to everything else in the chain.  Swapping out one mic model for another is going to affect the sound more (it's not subtle) than any chipset difference in the ADC/DAC.
 
When you start to view sound as a palette that can be manipulated with a Swiss army knife of tools, you start to put technologies on a spectrum with things that are mostly transparent towards one end (cables, amps, ADCs/DACs) and things that are blatantly not transparent on the other (microphones, microphone placement, monitor speakers, EQ/DSP, gain settings, other aspect of the mix).
 
The major levers to move something from "doesn't sound good" to "sounds good" are at the "not transparent" end of the tools spectrum.  The mostly transparent stuff is viewed as plumbing.
 
This is a very different mindset than that of most consumers, for whom music is a received good and are concerned only about reproduction.  This may be one reason why many audiophiles disdain EQ -- they view it as tainting the recording, of diluting the truth.
 
Audio engineers, on the other hand, know the recording is an act of artifice to begin with, an artistic interpretation of the truth.
 
Jan 9, 2016 at 1:25 PM Post #9,698 of 145,768
Amazing isn't it? As a teen, though, cities were attractive because I was a weird, art guy. Cities had more girls that were into that. I had no idea what the trade offs were. Worse yet, my first city living experience was in Savannah, GA. I don't recommend it, even as cities go. LA was better. Barely.

 
Hah, my case is the absolute opposite. I am an Indian. Was basically born and brought up in all 4 major metro cities in India as my family moved around. So lots of people and pollution. At that time i loved it because everything was nearby, especially girls:)
 
Got into engineering (ECE) and was lucky enough to get a job with Siemens. Since some of my undergrad work involved robotics and AI,  i was selected for an internship in Munich. Left them a couple of years after that for an IT degree and later specialized in analytics. Was pretty lucky again in getting to work on contract at some really great places in Germany, Netherlands, Denmark, Sweden, Spain and US within a span of 10 years. Germany and Denmark are my favorite countries and i will hopefully will be able to retire to one of them later. Hopefully the wife would agree!! Though i am now with my family here, getting really antsy as the work sucks though the pay is great.
 
Jan 9, 2016 at 1:32 PM Post #9,699 of 145,768
I know nothing of speakers. Why is a pre-amp necessary?

 
In my living room system (as opposed to my studio/office), my passive speakers are hooked up to mono block power amps.  
 
The power amps (1 per channel in this case) don't have volume control or input selection.  The preamp does this.
 
I also have a phono stage, which is necessary to boost the output of the turntable (and apply RIAA EQ) to the right voltage to be fed into the preamp.
 
Jan 9, 2016 at 1:34 PM Post #9,700 of 145,768
The Feb. Absolute Sound issue has a small Elac F5 speaker review btw.
 
Jan 9, 2016 at 1:35 PM Post #9,701 of 145,768
Jan 9, 2016 at 3:05 PM Post #9,702 of 145,768
  Regarding the need (want?) for balance control on HP equipment, I learned a lesson today.  With one ear slightly down due to ??, and a balance control on the BHA-1, I was still able to achieve a nicely balanced sound.  Never thought I'd use the balance control, until now.  Just IMO and FYI, as always my fellow Head-Fiers.

 
I drive my desktop speakers (an old pair of 11-ohm Rogers LS3/5As) with an Advent Model 300 which not only has a balance control, but *gasp!* treble and bass tone controls (sourced by Mac -> Modi U2). It sits within arm's reach on a shelf to my left. Now the LS3/5As are rightly renowned for their soundstage, and on well-recorded material I can move side to side a bit in my chair and retain it. On other material there is definately a sweet spot baked right into the recording, and moving a couple of inches in one direction or the other breaks that stereo image. I use the balance control to fix that. Frequently. Because I have the option to and it's right there experimentation is quick and easy. If I had no balance control, I'd never think to use it, or (probably) notice I needed it, which I surely do.
 
I also use the tone controls to tweak response, mostly bass. Over-heavy synth bass in pop music can be quite a problem in my small-ish home office, and screechy vocals drive me nuts, but a quick adjustment with the tone control can fix that. Sometimes I find I do that on a track-by-track basis when I'm playing a mixed playlist.
 
Jan 9, 2016 at 5:42 PM Post #9,703 of 145,768
 
 
--snip--
I no longer own any vinyl, but I do like the argument of having a top quality, spelled multibit, home ADC component to transfer treasured vinyl collections to server audio files for future proofing.  Who knows how extensive that potential market still is, but we do know that vinyl collection is alive and growing...  May actually be a viable Schiit product even at yggy pricing if it can tout comparable performance. 
 
We may yet become spoiled with a plethora of audiophilic abundance.  If Mike and Jason can somehow convince themselves that they wouldn't take it in the shorts with this one.  Certainly the ADC topic is recurrent here.


Hmm, That's kind of where this started, With the Mani being such a great piece of gear even though there are countless Phono stages out there, however even stereophile had a whole write up on it and the roots it has from Mikes Phono stage over 30 years ago.  So all we pondered was a Moderately price ADC that can get a close to accurate digital representation of Records for which CD's do not exist. Somehow we are talking about mic's and pro gear and concerts.
 
So lets Take it Back to a Plain Jane ADC that will complement the Mani for those of us who want a digital version on records for which digital version do not exist. A Piece of gear that is a Mani complement . That's it, Mastering, Mixing, All of that is done. So that's is not even a factor here so it is a moot point.
 
I think it is great for those that love DS dacs and SD ADC's Awesome. That's great you work in the "pro" world. and all. I for one will put my money in the person who has designed and built some very notable products in the analog and digital world. Currawong and crew may smack my hand here but that is,  in my opinion like a college Science teacher arguing with Einstein or Newton about their own work.

 
 
  My lack of respect for delta sigma DACs is only slightly exceeded by the same for sigma delta A2D converters - they are suitable for cheap (oops, inexpensive) prosumer stuff.  How much is it worth for a user to digitize their vinyl??  Think about it.  If they were making original recordings, it would be worth a bit more.  Easy to do for Bifrost money or less, and amazing in the context of all of the other insipid stuff out there.
 
To do a real multi-bit megacomboburrito deal recording at balanced in at 24 bit 250-500KHz sampling rate AES/EBU out (USB is for children and feral wannabe engineers) as good as the stuff I made (Gain 1) for Mobile Fidelity is going to cost like an Yggy.  But it will be really *** good.  How many people really need that?  Wants and needs are different.

 
I was away for a while and missed the sidebar into 32-channel ADC-DAC pro gear, thank goodness, since that's not what this thread is focussed around. The primary reason the pro gear uses Sigma-Deta ADCs is because it's cheap, especially when you need one on each channel (so that pro gear referenced above has a minimum of 32 ADC-DACs on board), and the job they do is good enough for rock'n'roll. (But maybe not jazz... :wink:. There's the added cost that pro gear needs to be able to survive being roughly thrown onto a tour bus or rig every night and driven over the mountains or deserts in an uninsulated dusty compartment.
 
And asking why anyone would bother making a better non-SD ADC when there's so many adequate and even some good ones out there already is exactly like asking why Schiit would bother making a better non-SD DAC when there's so many adequate and even some good ones out there already. If you don't know the answer to that by now, you haven't gone back far enough in this thread (hint: start with Chapter 33).
 
Jason said Schiit is going to be focussing a little more on 2-channel gear in the next year(s?). TWO channel gear, note.
 
Now, let's revisit that throwaway question Baldr asked: "How much is it worth for a user to digitize their vinyl?"
 
Lemme see - a quick thumbnail count of my wall o' vinyl and let's guess I've got a smallish collection of 1,200 albums. At least 50% are played to crap and not worth recording due to surface noise, so that's 600 left. Of those, 2/3 have jumped the digital divide so I can buy them on CD if I want, leaving 200. Of those 200, let's say I'm interested in adding about half of them to my iTunes collection, so that's about 100 records.
 
Acknowledging that albums have to be recorded in real time (no hi-speed dubbing cassettes here!), and that each record averages 40 minutes for both sides, that's around 70 hours of my life. For an investment like that (time is the most valuable thing we own) I want to make sure I do the job right the first time so I don't have to repeat it and I want to do it to the best quality I can afford.
 
I already have multiple phono stages in the house, but if I didn't the Mani does a more than adequate job, not only according to Stereophile, but according to pro-sound guys I know that love it, use it, recommend it, and install it for their client base.
 
So I don't need a combination Mani + ADC, I just need an ADC. Spreading the cost of one over 100 albums at $5 an album, or even $10 per those 70 hours, means that a $500 - $700 multibit ADC would make sense. If we take Baldr at his word that it's "Easy to do for Bifrost money or less" then a $400 multibit DAC would be a bargain, and one in the Modi / Magni / Mani price range would be a screaming deal. And despite Baldr's distain for the technology, at this price range and intended use the product would have to output to USB, and use RCA inputs. And although I'm happy keeping my music at Redbook quality, I'd want the option to record at a higher resolution so I have room for a hiss/click/noise-removal pass before outputting the final version. Since it's Schiit after all, maybe a headphone jack for monitoring... :wink: (but that's not as critical in ripping LPs as it is in making a live recording).
 
Moving up the scale, a full-on GAIN I quality ADC could happily live in the $1,200 - $2,200 range of the Gugnir Mulitbit or Yggdrasil. Here is where you have balanced inputs and AES outputs alongside the RCA inputs and toslink, S/PDIF and USB outputs. Perhaps that's the Gugnir level, and the Yggi level adds multiple inputs (not multiple channels, still just 2-channel), with FireWire and Thunderbolt output.
 
In my case, the $2,200 TOTL Schiit ADC would translate to $33 / hr. for my paltry 100 LP conversion: more than I earn an hour right now and not worth it. But it would make sense for someone with a much larger collection and plenty of time, or those who use it professionally.
 
Which brings us to Baldr's followup question, "How many people really need that?"
 
Well, without doing a survey (and we know what Jason thinks of those... :) I would say that the market for a Mani / Modi price range ADC would pretty much be the same as or larger than the market for the Mani itself, numbers Schiit already has on hand and which Baldr characterized as unexpectedly healthy. From there, it's pretty simple to use the rule of thumb: double the price, halve the sales. Until you get to the TOTL product: Jason has also said that demand for the Yggi exceeded their expectations and the first 2,000 sold out almost right away.
 
I know Baldr and Jason both have said they have no interest in getting into the pro audio gear: it's not their bailiwick. At $2,200 they're definately going to have pro audio guys looking their way, and that may be more trouble than it's worth. It might be worth it however if they develop the GAIN I technology for the expensive model, then trickle it down to the point where it more than pays for the R&D as was done with Schiit's multibit DACs.
 
But I truly believe a 2-channel multibit ADC for Bifrost money would absolutely sell to the home-audio, LP-ripping crowd. And one for Mani money would fly out the door.
 
Jan 9, 2016 at 6:05 PM Post #9,704 of 145,768
Perhaps I can go back to posts 9617 and 9633 and the DS and Multibit discussion and ask for some feedback. I am in the same age bracket as Baldr (I am 72) and have been blessed with very good hearing but I accept that it is not what it was and I have no way of testing it as Baldr does.
 
I own the Agaard 2 and a Bifrost 4490. My music collection of 12000 tracks (90% classical) has been digitised for years and I have no complaints about my Dell Quad Core PC and Win 10 Pro. as the feedstock. I listen to my music using Foobar and Asio.
 
Over the years I experienced a couple of "wow" moments. The first was when I included a Music Streamer II in my setup which was MSII > Marantz Amp > Sennheiser HD480 Classic II headphones. This was a long lasting "wow" and worth every penny.
 
The next "wow" moment was when I bought the Asgaard 2 to replace the Marantz Amp. Another extended "Wow"
 
My Sennheisers were now 20 years old and issues with the cable and pin connectors meant a change to Sennheiser HD598's not a "wow" moment but different and not as in your face as the 480's. This was soon followed by the Bifrost 4490 and I wish I could say that this was another "Wow" moment. The Bifrost is certainly an improvement on the MSII and the detail and soundstage is definitely better but the bang for the buck factor was not in the same range as the two previous upgrades.
 
Reading posts 9617 and 9633 by Baldr left the impression that he was dismissive of DS Dac's. Is this the reason for the underwhelmed reaction to my DS Bifrost?
 
What I am looking for is feedback from those who have upgraded to the Multibit Bifrost. Has the upgrade been a "Wow" moment and worth the expense? I'd just hate to have spent the money and find that the improvement is marginal. Baldr clearly thinks that the difference is substantial. He clearly has the engineering knowledge to prove that it is technically better but I wonder to what degree it translates to in use performance. I still have very good hearing especially as far as Pitch and Tone is concerned. Is the tonal range of the Multibit better? Is the soundstage bigger?
 
Now, before the loyal army rushes to the defence, I am not unhappy with my Bifrost! - I simply wonder whether the difference between the DS Bifrost and The MB Bifrost as experienced by users justifies the (for me) not insignificant cost of upgrading.
 
PS I still have 100+ LP's to convert and add my vote for a Schiit ADC.
 
Jan 9, 2016 at 6:12 PM Post #9,705 of 145,768
 
Audio engineers, on the other hand, know the recording is an act of artifice to begin with, an artistic interpretation of the truth.

I believe anyone who has ever given thought to the music recording realises this, it's such a pity so many of these engineers are house painters and not Rembrandts.
 

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