Schiit Happened: The Story of the World's Most Improbable Start-Up
Feb 14, 2021 at 10:17 PM Post #71,731 of 72,836

ImagesbyMurray

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Roon seems to dig deeper into the network stack than most other products we use at home, and that triggers bugs in routers, switches, and endpoints that are not noticeable with less demanding network applications. One notorious example are the interactions between some versions of the Android network stack and how network gear handles multicast and IGMP handling. To make things worse, it looks like consumer networking gear has become increasingly flaky with respect less used networking manoevers such as multicast discovery as more specialized, narrower alternatives such as Zeroconf/mDNS have been adopted by key players like Apple and Google. I've bugged Roon folks gently about moving to a more widely used device/service discovery method than their custom multicast one, it would save them a lot of support trouble and upset users in the long run even though it would be a major development project as they'd have to rip out all their old discovery machinery.

It's not a total coincidence that I moved to semi-pro Ubiquiti/UniFi network gear as I started to depend on Roon. But that has its own hardware and knowledge costs.
I have to agree! My home network, as well as those I support use VLAN's as all host VOIP (Cisco / Asterisk) phones, as well as VPN's into 3 customer networks. No way this is happening at home without Ubiquiti, which support QOS (quality of service) and COS (class of service) as well as Multicast routing. I happen to have my audio segmented on a VLAN separate from all others (my wife does an intense nightly 20 minute Facebook/Instagram session for her business, I'm not letting that affect any currently running audio streams - of course we let each know...) . Had no idea ROON uses multicast (nothing inherently wrong with that) but determining UDP ports, etc should be interesting. To give you an idea, multicast discovery can be easily degraded on many consumer networking devices, especially when we have Wireless Access Points, Printers, Scanners, Cameras, Smartphones, Roon endpoints all shouting HERE I AM, on even the most modest network....

I'll do a bit of digging, but here is a super quick tip: If your main router supports a "guest network" - use it! Either connect your audio to it, with all other devices to main, or vice versa - this will help segregate UDP traffic.

EDIT: quick check; Roon *device discovery* uses UDP port 9300. RAAT (Roon Advanced Audio Transport) uses TCP 9100-9200 (each core --> endpoint would use a unique TCP port)

/john
 
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Feb 14, 2021 at 10:31 PM Post #71,732 of 72,836

JohnnyOps

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I have to agree! My home network, as well as those I support use VLAN's as all host VOIP (Cisco / Asterisk) phones, as well as VPN's into 3 customer networks. No way this is happening at home without Ubiquiti, which support QOS (quality of service) and COS (class of service) as well as Multicast routing. I happen to have my audio segmented on a VLAN separate from all others (my wife does an intense nightly 20 minute Facebook/Instagram session for her business, I'm not letting that affect any currently running audio streams - of course we let each know...) . Had no idea ROON uses multicast (nothing inherently wrong with that) but determining UDP ports, etc should be interesting. To give you an idea, multicast discovery can be easily degraded on many consumer networking devices, especially when we have Wireless Access Points, Printers, Scanners, Cameras, Smartphones, Roon endpoints all shouting HERE I AM, on even the most modest network....

I'll do a bit of digging, but here is a super quick tip: If your main router supports a "guest network" - use it! Either connect your audio to it, with all other devices to main, or vice versa - this will help segregate UDP traffic.

/john
So, how do you deal with the fact that your phone (in my case that’s my remote) is likely on the main network? I’m not that smart at networking... can you set up a vlan rule that allows certain clients to live on both VLANs? I’ve had the same question about printers, Sonos, thermostats, etc.
 
Feb 14, 2021 at 10:56 PM Post #71,733 of 72,836

JamminVMI

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I work in IT for a school district. On more than one occasion I've heard support team members ask a teacher if they can put a student on the phone. :D
Dying!
 
Feb 14, 2021 at 11:48 PM Post #71,734 of 72,836

rkw

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here is a super quick tip: If your main router supports a "guest network" - use it! Either connect your audio to it, with all other devices to main, or vice versa - this will help segregate UDP traffic.
So, how do you deal with the fact that your phone (in my case that’s my remote) is likely on the main network? I’m not that smart at networking... can you set up a vlan rule that allows certain clients to live on both VLANs? I’ve had the same question about printers, Sonos, thermostats, etc.
I have the same question. If I put Roon on a guest network, everything that it connects to would need to be there as well. In my case, that would be Pi2AES streamer and Chromecast Audio. However, I also want to access those (and Roon) from my laptop and phone.
 
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Feb 15, 2021 at 12:30 AM Post #71,735 of 72,836

johnjen

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I don't really know how to bring this.
In the past I was the one claiming that a player (software) couldn't make any sound difference. Always did it of as the famous two letters that start with a B and ends with an S.
Now, with the new Roon 1.8 release I must be dreaming or my ears are fooling me.
I now think there are some improvements made in the timing domain because I think I'm hearing more detail, more sound stage and better placement.
Nothing else has changed in my audio chain but the Roon upgrade a few days ago. Am I the only dreamer? Am I nuts?

PS. Love the way the Roon Focus function works. It's great for popular music, but it must be a dream for classical music fans.
S/W will and does change the SQ during playback and it doesn't matter if it’s the player or the dac or…
Case in point are the PS Audio dacs with their multitude of S/W updates, each with their own sonic traits.

Another case is that Quobuz doesn't sound as good as my Jriver player.
And after the Jriver player changed the DSP engine to SoX there was a shift in SQ as well.

Digital music is by it's very nature, mutable at any and every step in the process (as is analog), from digital file delivery to the player, and on to the dac etc.
Sometimes it's discernible, sometimes it can smack you in the face, while for some it seemingly makes no difference.

Go figure…

JJ
 
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Feb 15, 2021 at 12:42 AM Post #71,736 of 72,836

Ripper2860

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Feb 15, 2021 at 1:01 AM Post #71,737 of 72,836

earnmyturns

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I'll do a bit of digging, but here is a super quick tip: If your main router supports a "guest network" - use it! Either connect your audio to it, with all other devices to main, or vice versa - this will help segregate UDP traffic.
Thanks, but unlike many complainant on the Roon forums, I've had zero problems with my Roon setups once I tamed the buggy IGMP snooping of a Netgear managed switch some years ago. In this location, I'm quite happy with UDM + UniFi managed switches. At our other location, I still have an older Edgerouter because was fairly easy to configure for the dual-homed WAN I need there (never fully trust Comcast) and a less homogenous network, nevertheless rock solid. We currently have no conflicts at either location, performance is fine, I had already in mind the option to add a separate subnet if things got iffy. But then our network demands are very tame compared with yours.
 
Feb 15, 2021 at 1:19 AM Post #71,738 of 72,836

johnjen

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was the vinyl recording chain using exclusively analog gear (analog magnetic tape and / or cutting lathes real-time) or did the audio get recorded on a digital workstation with A/D, digital mixing, D/A conversion?
I really doubt it was an analog recording as they must have used the Dante (or equal) AOIP (Audio Over I P) based audio distribution system, just in order to handle the show and recording requirements.

I have that CD as well and can tell it was used, just from the AOIP sound signature alone.
Any large venue these days would be foolish to NOT use an AOIP based audio distribution system as it trounces a strictly analog 'snake' based system.
AND it provides functionality for ALL communications for the entire show such as lighting comms, video comms, special effects comms, and backstage comms, (bidirectional) on stage live feed, out front mix etc. all at the same time, in near real time, seamlessly.

And if you had ever spent sufficient time listening to a 'proper' AOIP setup for home playback, you'd understand just how well it does it's job.
As such I can hear when an AOIP audio distribution system with it's unique sound signature is used because it 'stands out' and becomes easy to tell.

JJ
 
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Feb 15, 2021 at 5:45 AM Post #71,739 of 72,836

KoshNaranek

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Thanks, but unlike many complainant on the Roon forums, I've had zero problems with my Roon setups once I tamed the buggy IGMP snooping of a Netgear managed switch some years ago. In this location, I'm quite happy with UDM + UniFi managed switches. At our other location, I still have an older Edgerouter because was fairly easy to configure for the dual-homed WAN I need there (never fully trust Comcast) and a less homogenous network, nevertheless rock solid. We currently have no conflicts at either location, performance is fine, I had already in mind the option to add a separate subnet if things got iffy. But then our network demands are very tame compared with yours.
I have had good experience with this as a router

https://www.ipfire.org/
 
Feb 15, 2021 at 6:38 AM Post #71,740 of 72,836

GearMe

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My sister had several rabbits when she was in college. She had trained them, they would come when called by name. She'd let them loose in the yard, they'd bounce around happy as can be. The neighbors had a rather unpleasant cat which made the mistake of trying to go after one of the rabbits. That rabbit all but destroyed the cat. That cat NEVER set foot in our yard again. Oh, and if you hear one growl, back off. Back way off. They growl when they're pissed and about to attack.

Run Away!!!

 
Feb 15, 2021 at 6:59 AM Post #71,741 of 72,836

FLTWS

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Feb 15, 2021 at 7:33 AM Post #71,742 of 72,836

Les Strat

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I know I'm tempting fate here.........

But, I have 7 or RPis as streamer end points and they all work very well. No real issues at all.

Stand back and waits..........
Don't tempt fate @golfbravobravo
I probably have the power to stop all 7 of your devices working, even acting remotely from the other side of the Atlantic, simply by logging on to this thread.:grin:
Friends with very expensive computers/ IT systems have barred me from going anywhere near their gear :beyersmile:
 
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