[SeEnCreaTive]

I'm pretty excited actually

I don't know much about the inner workings of amps, but aren't the new fancy THX amps (like the Massdrop) use the THX modules? Aren't they more or less OP amps anyways?

 

[Balthazar B]

Not sure about the red, but Modi is now available in black.

Also, a red/black Bifrost 2 would be amazing—but since I’ll be stacking it with a regular Jotunheim, I’d rather have red/black on the latter rather than the R version

Ultimately, red/black makes everything better!

Heck, I've been waiting for just a black Freya+, but it's been like waiting for Godot. I like black/red combos, but quite possibly wouldn't pass muster with my wife. At least in the living room. Man cave is different.

 

[MonoOno]

Jason, will there be a Modi 3 in black and red to match the Heresy?

 

[PioBeer]

Jason posted earlier that there will not be. Just black and grey.

 

[ludvigrollover]

Nah, power LEDs are just moving inside the chassis, like Asgard 3.

what, I need to buy a real reading lamp now?

 

[MonoOno]

Jason posted earlier that there will not be. Just black and grey.

Yeah, just noticed. Welp, that sucks.

 

[A Jedi]

@Jason Stoddard I'm (apparently the only one) confused about the Magni Thunderdome. 99.9% of people have no clue what discrete vs op-amp is. And of those that do, how many have had enough experience with each to know which they prefer (I certainly have not)? In this thunderdome you're asking people to decide between 2 things they don't understand. I bet the "winner" will come down to either color choice, the preference of your wording of one version vs the other or, pure luck. If you want real results you should only take into account the people who buy both and return one. The preamp thunderdome at least has differences more people can understand (tubes/SS, balanced/unbalanced).

 

[tincanear]

I feel like I've owned the Magni 3 for the better part of half a year,

Jason, Y U DO DIS

Not that I'm the intended market anymore.

My next baby is probably gonna be the Asgard 3 or Lyr 3.

I still gotta do the writeup of the Hel/Fulla 3. I haven't forgotten. It should be done this coming week, all hoping. I hate holding on to loaned gear, but it's been a terrible time for me getting anything done.


Led inside chassis = god yes.

If there was one thing, I'd want.... is volume knob on top of all your amps like Asgard and Magnis. I mean, sexy top knobs are best knobs. Anyone who disgarees...fight me. After having the top volume knobs on both the Fulla 3 and HEL, I look at the volume knob on the Magni 3 with disdain.

actually, you're very fortunate to have the loaners from Schiit-- you get to have their latest and greatest on your desktop without impacting your wallet, for now (see below).

if you're still considering Asgard 3 or Lyr 3, then you have Gear Acquisition Syndrome (like most of us on this thread)… resistance is futile... just save up for a Mjolnir-class HP amp, and start "hording" ECC40 tubes before @bcowen and @Ripper2860 gobble up the world's existing supply.

aside @bcowen @Ripper2860 no need to worry about me competing for the remaining supply-- i'm still using a solid-stage (gasp) preamp that predates Schiit's existence by about 10 years.... until I succumb and get a Freya S to replace it (kinda hoping it loses the thunderdome battle to you "valve heads" (absolutely no disrespect intended) so I can buy as a last-call item for less $$$)

 

[Timster]

@Jason Stoddard

I prefer the use of "and" as much as possible instead of "but" ... more positive

"We developed the Magni Heresy largely to see what could be accomplished with a simple topology and modern op-amps, AND we’re very pleased with the way it came out."

YMMV

 

[ev666il]

@Jason Stoddard So I was thinking: When Modi 3 was introduced, you explained how consolidating your product line made sense as it made it easier on the customers (by removing choice clog) and on Alex (he’d have less product variations to keep track of.)

While I do understand what you’re doing with the Thunderdome, and I am especially appreciative of your customer-oriented business model (it’s one of the many things I love Schiit for), doesn’t having two versions of Magni kind of run counter that consolidation approach?

Indeed, you said you’d eventually only produce the one version customers preferred—but you also said you’d do both, were customers to be split evenly between the two.

 

[tincanear]

@Jason Stoddard I'm (apparently the only one) confused about the Magni Thunderdome. 99.9% of people have no clue what discrete vs op-amp is. And of those that do, how many have had enough experience with each to know which they prefer (I certainly have not)? In this thunderdome you're asking people to decide between 2 things they don't understand. I bet the "winner" will come down to either color choice, the preference of your wording of one version vs the other or, pure luck. If you want real results you should only take into account the people who buy both and return one. The preamp thunderdome at least has differences more people can understand (tubes/SS, balanced/unbalanced).

'unbalanced' sounds somewhat derogatory, the preferred term is 'single ended' aka SE

 

[Timster]

'unbalanced' sounds somewhat derogatory

I've never thought of it referring to me in a derogatory sense

 

[tincanear]

Modi 3 was the best purchase I ever made in audio. I have been very impressed with it. I still prefer Asgard 2 over Asgard 3 though. I might give the Heresy a shot, but I will probably just lose on return shipping and re-stocking fee, when I go back to my Asgard 2... lol

Maybe not though, never know. Asgard 2 just suits my ears so well for some reason.

would magni 3 heresy be worth a try if i already own asgard 2? or just be happy with what i have?

Magni 3 Heresy is worth a try if you like the black top/ red side panels color scheme, but keep in mind you'll need to update your Modi 3 for best aesthetic. Asgard 2 and other amps in the mid-size chassis have the well-respected blue alps rk27 pot, which gives very good volume tracking at lower pot settings than the smaller rk09 pots used for the smaller form factor chassis. asgard 2 will put out more than adequate power to the HD58X, enough to smoke the voice coils and/or cause permanent hearing damage running continuous sine waves or white noise when cranked within the amp's rated output.

 

[tin-ear]

Further thoughts on heresy: or, Preconceptions vs. Performance.

It's sometimes difficult to remember that we all live in separate universes, each of which we construct in our individual cranium (crania?) and which may or may not have anything to do with reality. And how can we know reality, anyway?

Point being that many of us, especially the types who become audiophiles, tend to commit to our ideals and preconceptions more powerfully and faithfully than we commit to even our spouses. Which leads us to avoid and even condemn that which we think we should not approve/support/enjoy. And so we miss out, if we don't occasionally step off our well-trodden path.

Because things do change, even when we might prefer they didn't.

This of course applies to all areas of life, not just op-amps. The question becomes, what's more important - being willing to experiment, or being right, being firm in your convictions?

The older I get, the more flexible I try to be. (Mentally and physically.) Because there are good new things out there to be enjoyed. I applaud Jason for his approach to audio, engineering and business. Even if he has rendered all my old Schiit obsolete. Guess I need to put some new Schiit in the cart, and find some new music to enjoy.

Merry Christmas!

For those who missed this:

 

[tincanear]

By the way, if you're super-bored, here's an extension of some of the questions I asked in the chapter. I call it "The Engineer's Quiz." There are no prizes, sorry. Just something fun for the analog designers out there.

(And yeah, I'm bored, just kinda hanging out today, cleaning up from Thanksgiving yesterday.)

Engineers quiz

1. Why would you expect an op-amp design to measure better than a discrete design?
2. Why would you expect both op-amp and discrete designs to measure better in low gain than high gain?
3. Why would adding a driver stage to a discrete design affect the distortion performance?
4. Why might you have to re-compensate a discrete design when you add a driver stage?
5. What other techniques can be used to make a discrete amplifier measure better?
6. What is feedforward also known as, and how is it different than feedback? Bonus: write the s-domain equation for feedforward and negative feedback. Bonus bonus: recount the number of times you used s- or jw-domain simplifications as an engineer, and name the mathematical discipline they are simplifications of.
7. Which of the current TI audio op-amps claims highest distortion performance?
8. What factors will contribute to an engineer not replicating the claimed distortion performance numbers for an op-amp design?
9. How large of a difference will jack contact and cable routing make when performing measurements on low-distortion amplifiers?
10. What is the typical distortion level of a good loudspeaker transducer? (A range is fine, or multiple ranges for bass/midrange.)
11. What is the typical distortion level of a good headphone transducer? (Same notes above.)
12. How does transducer distortion compare to amplifier distortion in terms of level and profile?
13. What is the typical distortion level of a good recording microphone? Bonus: what is the distortion profile of the chain used to record your favorite music (microphone, preamp, processors, ADC, etc)?

@Jason Stoddard the fact that you list these items at all means that you definitely apply more engineering in your products than some "audio designers" and tweakists do.

1. measurement (with steady-state, sinusoidal waveforms) for op-amp measures better than discrete from combination of higher open loop gain plus feedback. op-amps also have tighter beta matching between differential pairs, tighter thermal ambient, and ability to make more complex structures (like the multi-emitter transistors, when the data sheets /data books included an "equivalent circuit schematic")
2. in low gain mode, there is higher feedback
3. driver stage (VAS???) adds more distortion to the open loop, but would reduce voltage swing requirements of prior stage
4. driver stage transistors introduce another pole (low pass filter characteristic) in the loop
5. cascoding (fixed VCE or VDS, or Vplate-cathode), apply local feedback at each gain stage (emitter or source degeneration), grade and sort transistors for higher linearity per expected load-line, feed-forward
6. miller compensation? s and jw are phasor domain. (was a long time ago I studied this)
7. haven't looked recently, but I strongly suspect those exact TI parts that you selected (with the caveat that the output buffers are best at an equivalent load of about 250 ohms, which is why you employ 4x or is it 8x of those in parallel)
8. power supply bypassing; poor pcb layout, esp grounding and consideration of loop currents, input network impedances interacting with input parasitics
9. cable routing and ground connections are critical, esp for a power amp under loaded conditions. personally hate cheesy 3.5mm TRS connectors (wiggle and they become intermittent)
10. maybe a few percent for bass/midrange, 0.1%~0.5% for higher ranges
11. maybe 0.1% for mid bass & upwards, and much worse when approaching 20hz (if it goes that low)
12. transducer distortion is an order of magnitude or two worse than amp distortion
13. don't know, but expect it to be much worse than the preamp and power amp. ADC would be an exception if its the one @Baldr designed.

completely un-related aside: I thought that Kemet also made thin-film resistors in addition to SMT MLCC's (or was that very very long ago). Caddock, or are they mostly into custom arrays and power resistors?