[Balthazar B]

Yeah, I've been wondering about that repeatedly, that selling lifetime subscriptions can not be a viable business strategy for the company...

Some people will probably be unhappy about this, but in the long run this should be better even though it will cost us more, since it will keep the company alive and the software maintained.

OTOH, they had better have gotten the timing right. If the major players -- the latest of which is Amazon -- decide that Roon isn't going to do much for their business, they may never sidle under that umbrella, which will pretty severly limit the appeal beyond the Tidal-Qobuz-server core (there are a constrained number of John Darko types out there). Little doubt that Amazon's ambitions are to completely dominate the space, and essentially reproduce what Roon is doing, only with its own combination of services, hardware, and partnerships. Heck, they could probably out-Roon Roon itself if they see this strategically as a growing market from which they can derive most of the benefit the more and longer people adopt it. Sort of the Amazon turnpike.

By getting the timing right, it comes down to how much money people will spend with Roon over the next 3-4 years. If they would have made more selling $499 life relationships rather than from short-term users, then in retrospect it may turn out to be a bad move cutting off that spigot prematurely. Should all become clear(er) over the next couple of years.

FWIW, for us, Roon is at best an curious luxury to consider, but not especially appealing since most of the services/sources we use want nothing to do with Roon, and we pulled the plug on our audio content server long ago. While their new wrinkles are interesting (for us, and IMHO crucial for Roon's viability), it's probably nothing that Amazon, Google, Apple, Spotify, etc., could not easily clone if it appears to be helpful for growing their music services user base.

Sorry if this seems depressing, but over my lifetime I've seen way too many innovative small companies rendered obsolete astonishingly quickly by larger, better-capitalized (and in most cases better managed, TBH) incumbents and behemoths.

 

[yonson]

I see there's been a few more classic multibit stacks added to the website... SO tempted...

 

[Roy G. Biv]

Little doubt that Amazon's ambitions are to completely dominate the space, and essentially reproduce what Roon is doing, only with its own combination of services, hardware, and partnerships. Heck, they could probably out-Roon Roon itself if they see this strategically as a growing market from which they can derive most of the benefit the more and longer people adopt it. Sort of the Amazon turnpike.

FWIW, for us, Roon is at best an curious luxury to consider...

I agree with virtually everything you posted here. Bonus points for "out-Roon Roon" lol

For me, if a service doesn't include integrating streaming with the media that I own, then the service isn't viable to me. We have Spotify at home because my wife likes it, but unless one's media is in MP3 then there isn't any meaningful integration.

You used the term "curious luxury" which is exactly what I thought Roon was until I started using it. Kinda like what people initially thought of dishwashers. After 9 months of use I recognize its true value.

I realize that, like dishwashers, one can live without Roon but I darn sure don't want to be without it. I find it hard to believe that Amazon, Apple, Tidal, Qobuz etc. will try to replicate the functionality of Roon and therefore Roon will continue to exist as a niche product. As such, it will live on with niche pricing.

For those who got in before the price increase, rejoice. For those who didn't, sign up now before the next inevitable price increase and then... rejoice

 

[Rensek]

Add a phase button. And remote for the balance and phase...
.

I think you just need a Bifrost 2 for the phase and remote.

 

[Ripper2860]

10-12 band, 5-6 per channel, balance control, would be pretty sweet.

And don't forget VU meters!!

 

[belgiangenius]

Roon Lifetime price increase, $499 -> $699

$699 is too much for Roon’s lifetime subscription
It’s meant to hurt. It’s meant to reduce sales of lifetimes! If you hate it, the goal is achieved.
The lifetime should not be an end-goal for Roon subscribers, it hurts us as a company and is not a viable business model for our future.
We will eventually eliminate the lifetime entirely. If you have the cash and want the lifetime, go for it while it lasts. If you don’t, the annual is the right thing for you (and for us).
The annual is STILL $119 for a year. That’s $10 a month. If Roon isn’t worth $10 a month to you, then we are doing something wrong and you should go elsewhere. It certainly brings me more joy than $10 every month, and our business vision is to do the same for every one of our subscribers.

As a principle, I'm just opposed to monthly fees. After awhile, I always decide it's not worth it and cancel. I hate seeing recurring fees on my credit card bills.

It's much easier for me to come to terms with lump sum payments. I paid $499 for the lifetime subscription. I would not pay $10 a month.

 

[DougD]

As a principle, I'm just opposed to monthly fees. After awhile, I always decide it's not worth it and cancel. I hate seeing recurring fees on my credit card bills.

It's much easier for me to come to terms with lump sum payments. I paid $499 for the lifetime subscription. I would not pay $10 a month.

May I interest you in my (pending Kickstarter) nuclear-powered automobile project??? No more monthly gasoline (petrol) bills.

 

[Balthazar B]

For me, if a service doesn't include integrating streaming with the media that I own, then the service isn't viable to me. We have Spotify at home because my wife likes it, but unless one's media is in MP3 then there isn't any meaningful integration.

If you have been getting your hardcopy music from Amazon over the past several years, there's certainly a natural integration between streaming and that music you own. Probably won't be long before you'll be able to replicate your whole collection in FLAC format from AWS onto local media in the night while you sleep.

I realize that, like dishwashers, one can live without Roon but I darn sure don't want to be without it. I find it hard to believe that Amazon, Apple, Tidal, Qobuz etc. will try to replicate the functionality of Roon and therefore Roon will continue to exist as a niche product. As such, it will live on with niche pricing.

Amazon, Apple, Spotify, and Google most certainly have it within their power to provide something that will look, waddle, and quack like Roon to most consumers. Sad to say, but i'm afraid Tidal and Qobuz as we know them might end up as road kill as soon as Amazon finishes its hegemony in the audio market -- and particularly if they replicate what they've already done with book publishing and media production in the music space. As the number one gateway to most consumers, they hold tremendous leverage over the manufacturers and distributors of goods and content. Remember when Hyman Roth said "We're bigger than U.S. Steel"? Welcome to Amazon. And Apple, Spotify, and Google are not exactly small fry either.

For those who got in before the price increase, rejoice. For those who didn't, sign up now before the next inevitable price increase and then... rejoice

Unfortunately, I still don't see -- as a practical matter -- what Roon gets us, since we've transitioned almost entirely to streamed music, though we have a garage full of CDs in boxes. And again, since our behemoth streaming providers for the most part don't play in Roon's sandbox. The combination of Roon and Qobuz could be compelling since each provides what the other is missing...but then I have little doubt Amazon et al. will very soon provide comparably complete functionality at a significantly lower cost of entry and overhead.

 

[bobbmd]

Hmm. Up here In Canada we still have The Source (formerly Radio Shack), London Drugs, Best Buy and new kid Memory Express. They all sell stereo equipment. Admittedly, selection is down from a decade ago....

In Alberta we've also got a number of hi-end stores repping Macintosh, Focal, Paradigm, etc. etc. etc. It's not hard to audition everything from $50 Bluetooth speakers to $5000 amps to $50000 speakers.

And most stores will price match Amazon for other things - I've been shopping for Command Strips, and B&M stores often have better prices on that sort of commodity item than Amazon.
.

@valiant66 in Brooklyn they have a Wegmans Grocery store in the Brooklyn Navy Yard now prices 50% less than any grocery store in the 5 boroughs it's the smallest Wegmans on the east coast and the largest grocery store in all of NYC do everything include cook cables

 

[PioBeer]

Modi 3 vs R2R-11

In my 2 channel set up, with Vandersteen 2C mains, an OG Saga with a tung Sol tube and a behringer Ep2500 pro-amp (with fan mod). The Modi 3 comes out the clear winner (listened to some Mark Knofler and Arcade Fire) It is more resolving in the high end (what I was hoping for) a touch more sub bass and the most surprising - better sound stage depth. The holographic feel is really fantastic! This really is a tremendous bang for the buck, folks.

I will likely upgrade my speakers before I go up the line, but this is gonna work just great for now.

I am wondering if I should invest in a Vidar (before I get new speakers) to capitalize on even more Schiit synergy.

End goal is Freya+, Aegir, bifrost 2 or Yggdrasil and Tekton DI. Tempting to try and squeak out more of the Vandys with a Vidar, but I should probably save up the $3300 it takes for the DIs. Decisions decisions

 

[tincanear]

Add a phase button. And remote for the balance and phase...
.

the bandpass filters that would be necessary cause phase shifts, so the absolute phase switch loses some of its utility.

 

[Rensek]

Modi 3 vs R2R-11

In my 2 channel set up, with Vandersteen 2C mains, an OG Saga with a tung Sol tube and a behringer Ep2500 pro-amp (with fan mod). The Modi 3 comes out the clear winner (listened to some Mark Knofler and Arcade Fire) It is more resolving in the high end (what I was hoping for) a touch more sub bass and the most surprising - better sound stage depth. The holographic feel is really fantastic! This really is a tremendous bang for the buck, folks.

I will likely upgrade my speakers before I go up the line, but this is gonna work just great for now.

I am wondering if I should invest in a Vidar (before I get new speakers) to capitalize on even more Schiit synergy.

End goal is Freya+, Aegir, bifrost 2 or Yggdrasil and Tekton DI. Tempting to try and squeak out more of the Vandys with a Vidar, but I should probably save up the $3300 it takes for the DIs. Decisions decisions

I took a more holistic approach to system building. I just kept replacing what I thought was the weakest component next.

If I were you, (I'm not) i'd wait and get a b stock Vidar, then get a better Schiit DAC. Modi Multibit, Bifrost Multibit ( available now in short supply), or a Bifrost 2 then move to Saving for the DIs

Depends on the approach. I'm trying to buy gear that lasts years. In your case original Bifrost Multibit or Bifrost 4490 should both provide upgrades over Modi 3. Bifrost 4490 for sure does in my opinion ( haven't heard a Bifrost multibit) But if you bought right into a Bifrost 2 you'd probably have less, whatelseisoutthere-itis about dacs

Your Vandersteens are no slouches. If you upgrade other gear you will really be able to hear what they can do.

 

[tincanear]

Modi 3 vs R2R-11

In my 2 channel set up, with Vandersteen 2C mains, an OG Saga with a tung Sol tube and a behringer Ep2500 pro-amp (with fan mod). The Modi 3 comes out the clear winner (listened to some Mark Knofler and Arcade Fire) It is more resolving in the high end (what I was hoping for) a touch more sub bass and the most surprising - better sound stage depth. The holographic feel is really fantastic! This really is a tremendous bang for the buck, folks.

I will likely upgrade my speakers before I go up the line, but this is gonna work just great for now.

I am wondering if I should invest in a Vidar (before I get new speakers) to capitalize on even more Schiit synergy.

End goal is Freya+, Aegir, bifrost 2 or Yggdrasil and Tekton DI. Tempting to try and squeak out more of the Vandys with a Vidar, but I should probably save up the $3300 it takes for the DIs. Decisions decisions

@PioBeer glad to hear that the D/S Modi 3 works to help balance out the 2C's. Depending on your final speaker choice, you might consider holding off on the Vidar (for some user's setups, they prefer dual Aegirs fed from a Freya S or Freya +). 'don't fix what aint broke' as they say...but such advice is seldom heeded by audiophiles

Sultans of Swing, alchemy live...

 

[ev666il]

Re: Roon

Appreciate the honesty and transparency of the announcement. Many companies would just make the move and not bother justifying it with their customers. It’s always good when a company respects their user base enough to communicate with them and explain the reasons for doing something differently going forward.

It is worth noting that Audirvana also offers the opportunity to stream music and play local files. It doesn’t come with an EQ but if offers most other features found in Roon for a fraction of the price (and it accepts EQ plugins.) I honestly prefer its model where once you buy it, it is yours; if an update is out, you need to pay for it, but it’s your choice whether you want it.


Re: Phase button on Bifrost 2

I’ve never owned gear with this feature. What scenarios would I want to use it in? What would the benefit be?

 

[tincanear]

Re: Roon

Appreciate the honesty and transparency of the announcement. Many companies would just make the move and not bother justifying it with their customers. It’s always good when a company respects their user base enough to communicate with them and explain the reasons for doing something differently going forward.

It is worth noting that Audirvana also offers the opportunity to stream music and play local files. It doesn’t come with an EQ but if offers most other features found in Roon for a fraction of the price (and it accepts EQ plugins.) I honestly prefer its model where once you buy it, it is yours; if an update is out, you need to pay for it, but it’s your choice whether you want it.


Re: Phase button on Bifrost 2

I’ve never owned gear with this feature. What scenarios would I want to use it in? What would the benefit be?

the Phase button inverts phase 180 degrees (same thing as reversing the leads on both channels at your speakers). For music originating from real instruments (not synthesized) one setting may sound very different (and less natural) than the other setting. I have tried inverting the phase via speaker lead reversal using the Sheffield Drum CD, and the reversed phase had significantly less punchy but more hollow sound versus normal phasing.

Some recordings may have the absolute phase inverted as a result of the recording process (e.g. use of single-stage FET common-source or tube common cathode ??? style gain stages). The remote on Bifrost2 is particularly handy for changing the phase in the middle of a performance without leaving the optimal listening position.