Schiit Happened: The Story of the World's Most Improbable Start-Up
Apr 4, 2019 at 2:28 PM Post #45,616 of 87,581

mp29k

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Okay, sure. I can go into detail again. I have already discussed my problem with several other communities, and had a video of the problem at one point, but just trust me, this was a serious issue.

When I had the SAGA in my system, it was causing the woofers in my speaker to excursion by a huge amount, to the max, I think. It would 'pop' and the drivers would really violently move out.

I've owned plenty of other preamps in my system before the Saga. I used a AVR, an Anthem 225, and a crummy little Audio-GD. None of them were doing this. My only conclusion was that there was some kind of flaw in my system, either in the Saga, that the Saga was picking up... though I don't know why any of my other preamps were doing this. Anyway, I contacted schiit and they mailed me out a replacement right away. Same problem.

My initial thought, which still is my belief was that the Saga was sending out current downstream. Maybe I had two defective sagas. Maybe something was up with my power. And the beefier power supplies in the other preamps I had filtered it out. Who knows, to be honest. I just know if I had continued to use the Saga, it probably would have destroyed my speakers.

Would up returning both. Pleasant experience overall. And I already had some preamps of my own so I wasn't really out anything but time. They refunded me for my return shipping too, minus the cost of shipping the original unit to me.

And before you ask, yes, I did all the trouble shooting steps.
Sounds almost identical to what is referred to as "Rumble". You can get rumble commonly from turntable sources, and in particular, from warped records. It definitely isn't good, not because it will destroy your speakers, but because it robs power from your amp to produce the subsonic waves that cause that massive woofer movement. Many amps and specifically phono pre-amps have a "rumble filter" built in. Basically it filters out "sounds" below about 20hz.

Sorry it didn't work out for you, I find it to be a beautiful product and really unparalleled from a value standpoint given all the features. Thank you for explaining it though, very helpful.
 
Apr 4, 2019 at 2:34 PM Post #45,617 of 87,581

Rensek

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Sounds almost identical to what is referred to as "Rumble". You can get rumble commonly from turntable sources, and in particular, from warped records. It definitely isn't good, not because it will destroy your speakers, but because it robs power from your amp to produce the subsonic waves that cause that massive woofer movement. Many amps and specifically phono pre-amps have a "rumble filter" built in. Basically it filters out "sounds" below about 20hz.

Sorry it didn't work out for you, I find it to be a beautiful product and really unparalleled from a value standpoint given all the features. Thank you for explaining it though, very helpful.

I wonder if she was experiencing the problem while listening to vinyl? I didn't see it mentioned what was being listened too. I'd also like to know how long ago this was. To date I've rolled a few different tubes and lisst in my saga with nothing similar. I made my speakers pop once to a song with very heavy bass, but I had saga/Vidar loud enough my house was shaking, so I don't play that song as loud anymore...
 
Apr 4, 2019 at 2:39 PM Post #45,618 of 87,581

mp29k

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I wonder if she was experiencing the problem while listening to vinyl? I didn't see it mentioned what was being listened too. I'd also like to know how long ago this was. To date I've rolled a few different tubes and lisst in my saga with nothing similar. I made my speakers pop once to a song with very heavy bass, but I had saga/Vidar loud enough my house was shaking, so I don't play that song as loud anymore...
What song, I must try
 
Apr 4, 2019 at 5:05 PM Post #45,619 of 87,581

RCBinTN

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wow my HP cable is way more expensive than the rig!

Yeah man, the Prion4 is like the Rolls Royce of the cable industry :)

Just for calibration folks ... a 4-ft base Prion4 headphone cable is $1,800.
You can imagine the cost/foot to go longer.
 
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Apr 4, 2019 at 5:26 PM Post #45,620 of 87,581

ImagesbyMurray

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If you wanted I'm pretty sure you could pull the PCB out of the Switchwitch and do the point to point wiring yourself using their switches and enclosure.

That said if Schiit decided to make a Schiit Switch Witch I'd be all for it.

I like it!!! If they made both a balanced and unbalanced version then we could choose wich Schiit Switch Witch ......
 
Apr 4, 2019 at 5:46 PM Post #45,621 of 87,581

Ableza

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Yeah man, the Prion4 is like the Rolls Royce of the cable industry :)

Just for calibration folks ... a 4-ft base Prion4 headphone cable is $1,800.
You can imagine the cost/foot to go longer.
I am sure it is worth every penny. To someone. :)
 
Apr 4, 2019 at 6:07 PM Post #45,623 of 87,581

ZoNtO

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I'm not designing any $5000 amps, so that's that.

I mean, if I wanted to do a 250/500W amp that also operated as a 1K monoblock, you're talking $1500.

If I wanted to do an insane 100/200W Class A amp with choke-input power supply, you might be pushing $2500.


In terms of an integrated amp, you're at the mercy of packaging. Ragnarok is at its thermal limits. It doesn't have space for a big choke for a choke-input power supply. Adding heatsinks subtracts space for inputs or other components. Adding fans pisses people off (unless they are usually off, and only used in a panic situation.)

Can I make a better Ragnarok, a Ragnarok 2? You bet. We've learned a lot. But I can't speculate on when it'll happen, sorry.

I found this gem of a post today, and the bolded builds perfectly off of the posts about the "beastly" Sumo amp from a couple pages back. I think the 250/500W would be interesting, but not killer. Someone could still get that from Emotiva, etc. Maybe if the Class A bias was relatively high like how Pass does it.

The Class A amp on the other hand... How feasible would that amp be now that you have released Aegir? I ask because of all the speaker amps I've demoed at dealers recently--my Ragnarok 1.5, Parasound Halo Integrated ($2,500ish), Luxman LX-550AX Mark II ($5,500), PrimaLuna Dialogue Premium HP ($4,300?), Naim Supernait 2 ($5,800), Marantz Reference PM-10 ($8,000), and Plinius SA-103 (~$10,500)--the Plinius was by far my favorite. Massive heatsinks, 83 pounds, massive transformers, 125W/220W Class A (stereo), with a rear switch to select between mono/stereo via either RCA or XLR, with a button on the front that switches from Class A to A/B. Plenty of power for inefficient speakers. No harshness or bleached sound at higher volumes (90dB+ SPL at listening position on moderately efficient speakers), very resolving and nuanced.

If you could do something similar using Continuity, higher Class A bias than Aegir, with the standby switch that debiases, at 25% the Plinius' price that would be incredible and worthy of the name Odin. Could have a classic on your hands. :wink:
 
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Apr 4, 2019 at 6:15 PM Post #45,624 of 87,581

liamo

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I found this gem of a post today, and the bolded builds perfectly off of the posts about the "beastly" Sumo amp from a couple pages back. I think the 250/500W would be interesting, but not killer. Someone could still get that from Emotiva, etc. Maybe if the Class A bias was relatively high like how Pass does it.

The Class A amp on the other hand... How feasible would that amp be now that you have released Aegir? I ask because of all the speaker amps I've demoed at dealers recently--Ragnarok 1.5, Parasound Halo Integrated ($2,500ish), Luxman LX-550AZ Mark II ($5,500), PrimaLuna Dialogue Premium HP ($4,300?), Naim Supernait 2 ($5,800), Marantz Reference PM-10 ($8,000), and Plinius SA-103 (~$10,500)--the Plinius was by far my favorite. Massive heatsinks, 83 pounds, massive transformers, 125W/220W Class A (stereo), with a rear switch to select between mono/stereo via either RCA or XLR, with a button on the front that switches from Class A to A/B. Plenty of power for inefficient speakers. No harshness or bleached sound at higher volumes (90dB+ SPL at listening position on moderately efficient speakers), very resolving and nuanced.

If you could do something similar using Continuity, higher Class A bias than Aegir, with the standby switch that debiases, at 25% the Plinius' price that would be incredible and worthy of the name Odin. Could have a classic on your hands. :wink:
A straight triple dog dare if I ever saw one. Good luck!
 
Apr 4, 2019 at 6:39 PM Post #45,626 of 87,581

jimmers

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... So based on a 10' cable (3m) of different sizes, with the 3000 DF amplifier and 8 ohm speaker, I get

(gauge, 10' wire resistance, DF)
24awg, .25ohm, DF=32
22awg, .16ohm, DF=49
16awg, .04ohm, DF=188
14awg, .025ohm, DF=290
10awg, .01ohm, DF=640

If the amplifier DF was 100 to begin with, 16awg -> DF=67 and 10awg -> DF=89.

It seems unlikely folks in this forum would be using 24awg (I use 16awg 10' cables) but it seems that there could well be an audible difference between the cables even at the 16-10awg range.
A 10' foot speaker cable has 20' of wire, so the resistance is double what you have and the DF you calculated should be halved (approx.).
I'm not making any judgement on whether the change is significant though. :)
 
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Apr 4, 2019 at 8:23 PM Post #45,627 of 87,581

sennsay

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Brilliant sanity, Jason :) In all my experience of 45 years in hifi/audiophilia, I will totally agree with you! The sheer level of outrageous pleasure/joy/St Vitus dance jiggly fun that comes from the QP1R/Mimby/Magni 3/Senn HD540 Ref1s and some very nice cabling, is so far beyond what the system price might suggest that I am in no hurry to 'upgrade' any time soon. I've heard 'superior' headphones that don't come anywhere near the sonic balance and holistic integrity of the HD540s with their upgraded cables and pads .. they're 30 years old now and I'm the original owner too :) Sure, I'd love an Yggy one day, it's just that the Mimby gives me the essential emotional communication and organic life and rhythm that tickles my fancy plentifully well! With anything. I have other gear for different flavours and I must admit that the Mimby fed into the upgraded Elekit TU8500 valve preamp is astonishingly transparent and a joy to listen with.
Love your work, Jason and Mike. Cheers!
 
Apr 4, 2019 at 9:16 PM Post #45,629 of 87,581

porchwizard

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A 10' foot speaker cable has 20' of wire, so the resistance is double what you have and the DF you calculated should be halved (approx.).
I'm not making any judgement on whether the change is significant though. :)

Good catch! I updated my original post to use 20' of wire in a 10' speaker cable. The new table is

(gauge, 20' wire resistance, DF)
24awg, .5ohm, DF=16
22awg, .32ohm, DF=25
16awg, .08ohm, DF=97
14awg, .05ohm, DF=152
10awg, .02ohm, DF=356

If the amplifier DF was 100 to begin with, 16awg -> DF=50 and 10awg -> DF=80.
 
Apr 4, 2019 at 9:29 PM Post #45,630 of 87,581

marvinfickle

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To Jason and many others:

As a retired physician and wannabe audiophile, I have enjoyed this latest interchange better than nearly any other series of posts. With multiple SUMO amps and INFINITY 9/6 Kappas in the garage, I listen these days to 25 year old headphones (AKG K280 etc.) with a Bitfrost Multibit and Asgard 2. The wife is very pleased that she does not have to look at "tombstones" in the living room (except for the family room TV setup). The multiple comments about "people hearing differently" is very relevant, and like other neural pathways, it is only in the past several decades that people have begun to appreciate the vast differences in "taste" that are normally present. Whether it be alcoholic beverages, colors, smells, touch perception, or hearing, the notion that "preferences" exist has been late to the game. "Golden ears" was a catchphrase from 50 years ago; Eric Asimov has recently recognized that his taste preferences may not be everyone's choice.

I laughed out loud when I read Jason's comments about upgrading. As my hearing, sight, and other faculties have deteriorated over the years, I need to recognize that aging will nearly always rob one of the high frequencies, the ultraviolet, and speedy recovery from debauchery.
 

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