Schiit Happened: The Story of the World's Most Improbable Start-Up
Nov 18, 2018 at 10:29 AM Post #41,746 of 145,622
Hi there. In general, wireless and Ethernet are both subject to the same sorts of electrical noise because the main source of it is in the receiving device not in the transmission itself. Wireless can be impacted by other RF in the area, but that is rare - as is induced noise in an Ethernet cable. In general the downsides to using wireless involve bandwidth and signal strength, and in a HT or multi-room setup latency can be an issue. But in general, if you have good signal strength and we are talking about 2-channel audio there is no technical reason not to use wireless.

I use a good wireless connection (Router>MacMini) then ethernet cable direct (MacMini>microRendu>EITR) ... sounds good and it happens to be more convenient in my setup. The music is buffered in Audirvana so I'm not sure why either should be better over the other in that situation, other than the points mentioned by @Ableza
 
Nov 18, 2018 at 10:41 AM Post #41,747 of 145,622
I stream from a JRiver Media server in one end of the house to a JRiver node at the other end of the house via WiFi and have had no notable issues or sound degradation vs. listening hard wired. If properly run with some care to avoid parallel runs alongside power or running across light fixtures, there should be no difference between wired and wireless. Typically noise is injected at the source (before encapulation) or at the receiving end (after packet is opened) and not along the way. Even if some were to be introduced along the way, it is typically removed at the switch or NIC before the ENET packet is opened. Latency and jitter due to interference or poor signal strength can be an issue, but if care is taken to understand the environment and configure accordingly, there is rarely a difference that can be heard between wireless and hardwired.

Note: I am not an electrical engineer, I merely play one on TV. :wink:
 
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Nov 18, 2018 at 10:41 AM Post #41,748 of 145,622
Hi there. In general, wireless and Ethernet are both subject to the same sorts of electrical noise because the main source of it is in the receiving device not in the transmission itself. Wireless can be impacted by other RF in the area, but that is rare - as is induced noise in an Ethernet cable. In general the downsides to using wireless involve bandwidth and signal strength, and in a HT or multi-room setup latency can be an issue. But in general, if you have good signal strength and we are talking about 2-channel audio there is no technical reason not to use wireless.
I don't see a technical reason for "noise" in a wireless connection. Packets are packets and they arrive or they don't. Uncompressed cd quality needs about 1 megabit of bandwidth. Well below all but the poorest wifi connections. If one still ends up with packet underrun I guess different things can happen. Most audio players buffer at least a few seconds of audio and simply pause until data catches up. I've never heard odd noises injected in such cases but I guess it's possible based on a given player. I am still surprised if it's not handled smoothly since random delays due to competing traffic are unavoidable in a general purpose network. That's not to say constant pauses or skips to catch up wouldn't be annoying. In any event, the audio that does gets played should be identical regardless of the type of network link.
 
Nov 18, 2018 at 10:45 AM Post #41,749 of 145,622
we are talking about 2-channel audio there is no technical reason not to use wireless
I thought that too when I started to use digital audio, in the townhouse we owned in this same Silly Valley neighborhood before we moved to our current house. But in the evening I got dropouts, even with a top-of-the-line UniFi access point. This neighborhood has just way too much WiFi traffic at peak times. Occasional packet losses don't made a difference for web browsing, but matter for audio.

On "noise" in wired vs wireless: If packet integrity is maintained (whether wired or wireless), timing does not really matter because all LAN ethernet protocols used for audio streaming (RTP, RAAT, TCP, UDP, ... depending on your software) buffer and reclock at the receiving end. However, an electrical physical layer can carry electrical noise that might affect the audio performance of downstream components, depending on their design, cabling, grounding. If someone hears a difference between wired and wireless, the chances are that their digital endpoint(s) have a design weakness in their receiver for the less good source. This is no different from what happens with DACs sounding different with USB, S/PDIF, AES, I2S. The improvement from gen 5 USB in Schiit DACs shows that there is no absolutely superior source, just that there are better and worse designs. Same for wired vs wireless.
 
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Nov 18, 2018 at 10:45 AM Post #41,750 of 145,622
I don't see a technical reason for "noise" in a wireless connection. Packets are packets and they arrive or they don't. Uncompressed cd quality needs about 1 megabit of bandwidth. Well below all but the poorest wifi connections. If one still ends up with packet underrun I guess different things can happen. Most audio players buffer at least a few seconds of audio and simply pause until data catches up. I've never heard odd noises injected in such cases but I guess it's possible based on a given player. I am still surprised if it's not handled smoothly since random delays due to competing traffic are unavoidable in a general purpose network. That's not to say constant pauses or skips to catch up wouldn't be annoying. In any event, the audio that does gets played should be identical regardless of the type of network link.
Exactly, which is why I stated what I did. The main source for electrical noise in digital transmission systems is the receiver - or possibly the sender if noise gets encoded into the signal. It is not the medium.
 
Nov 18, 2018 at 10:48 AM Post #41,752 of 145,622
I thought that too when I started to use digital audio, in the townhouse we owned in this same Silly Valley neighborhood before we moved to our current house. But in the evening I got dropouts, even with a top-of-the-line UniFi access point. This neighborhood has just way too much WiFi traffic at peak times. Occasional packet losses don't made a difference for web browsing, but matter for audio.
One issue with wireless is signal strength. so if your signal integrity is affected then yes it can be an issue. If you don't have signal issues then there is no reason not to use wireless. :)
 
Nov 18, 2018 at 10:55 AM Post #41,753 of 145,622
Except that the sound stage is much more expansive in a wireless setup than it is running through a cable...duh!
I've got bronze ears and a limited audiophile vocabulary but the best way to describe it is -- kinda like the difference between open and closed headphones...on steroids :L3000:

A streaming setup could could do various things to lower the bit rate (compression / re-encoding) on a perceived slow connection which could impact sound quality. Just like many web video players auto select video quality based on available bandwidth. Of course that seems backwards from what you're describing since wired connections will be faster and more reliable than wireless under almost any conditions.
 
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Nov 18, 2018 at 10:59 AM Post #41,754 of 145,622
One issue with wireless is signal strength. so if your signal integrity is affected then yes it can be an issue. If you don't have signal issues then there is no reason not to use wireless. :)
In the case I reported, signal strength was fine -- I measured it multiple times. My guess is that some neighbors had over-juiced APs that stepped on my AP's transmissions. I wasn't about to fry my eyeballs by adjusting up transmit power on my AP :wink:
 
Nov 18, 2018 at 11:02 AM Post #41,756 of 145,622
In the case I reported, signal strength was fine -- I measured it multiple times. My guess is that some neighbors had over-juiced APs that stepped on my AP's transmissions. I wasn't about to fry my eyeballs by adjusting up transmit power on my AP :wink:
Interesting. Did you try changing wireless channels?
 
Nov 18, 2018 at 11:11 AM Post #41,758 of 145,622
I remember there was one Steve Job presentation where he was demonstrating the wifi speed of the new iphone (i think) but because there was so many mifi in the conference it was difficult and slow for the device to be fast. In the end he had tk ask the audience to turn off their devices.

Real world scenario on how wifis, especially in a big room, can block each other.

But going back to the topic of wireless vs wired, I think its best to use whatever it is that is optimal in a given setup and environment.

Lastly, direct cable connection has a higher chance of sending noise to the receiver.

I dont have any data to show but Im very much lead to believe that wifi is cleaner. Im open to be proven wrong really.
 
Nov 18, 2018 at 11:23 AM Post #41,759 of 145,622
I dont have any data to show but Im very much lead to believe that wifi is cleaner. Im open to be proven wrong really.
I cannot prove you wrong and don't want to.
I can only say that in my home and system SQ is at it's best when it's all cabled.
The manufacturers also state in their manuals a strong preference for cable.
On the other hand, I ate Brussels Sprouts stir-fried with rice, peppers and garlic today and no(sane)body would do that.
 
Nov 18, 2018 at 11:29 AM Post #41,760 of 145,622
Interesting. Did you try changing wireless channels?
Yes, messed around for a while, but then it was easier to just run ethernet wire from the living room, where the server was, to my workspace upstairs. When we moved two blocks to our current house, I just got the whole house wired.
 

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