[the finisher]

I think the takeaway here is that the speakers need to be really efficient, and that size doesn't necessarily play into the equation. Those Tektons that Finisher mentioned are notoriously efficient, yet hardly bookshelves. We're all (mostly) used to speakers that have efficiency ratings of like 85 dB and the like. So, if 100 watts drives an 85dB speaker comfortably, it would only take 50 watts on a 88dB speaker. Then it follows that 25 watts for 91dB, and 12 watts or so for 94dB, ad nauseam. Pure, clean Class A power 10 or 20 watts into highly efficient loudspeakers can change one's perspective on just what "high-end" audio is/can be. YMMV, as the total chain plays into the SQ.

Small, efficient bookshelves (95dB/W@1m):

https://www.tektondesign.com/mini-lore-monitor.html

Very well said. I'd get bigger speakers though.

Or get Vidar, it's great by all accounts.

 

[Rensek]

I understand that class A is harder to get the same wattage out of than something like class A/B, I understand what makes a pure class A amp more expensive then a different more efficient topology. You cvan show me expensive class a amps but we know thats not what Schiit does, They make what was expensive relativity reasonable. Which is why I am thrown I guess. Is 10 or 20 watts in class A louder than 10 or 20 watts of class A/B? Watts is watts right? Thats what is losing me. I guess when I see the amp I see something that will power a nice set of bookshelf speakers and could sounds really great doing it, but not really much else. I feel like Im missing a piece to the puzzle here and I want to know what it is. I know Schiit makes great stuff and usually when I see a product they release I can be like oh yeah thats cool, but honesty this is throwing me. I mean its cool but I dont understand why its a big deal. Unless you are telling me that we have gotten too caught up in power number and we are grossly overpowering out speakers..which I could definitely believe.

again this not not me hating or being argumentative or anything like that. I just really dont understand hype. Which may not be surprising because the extent of my speaker and amp buying is for home theater. I was never all that into a straight stereo setup, that was what my headphones were for. Lately though Ive been wanting to do a 2 channel setup in my living room for a turntable so in trying to figure this all out.

People love the sound of a Class A amp. Class A has a sound profile different from A/B, B, D, etc.

At least so far as I have read here and elsewhere. I'm young and haven't been exposed to class A yet. Plus they make great space heaters.

 

[johnjen]

My setup:

Ubiquiti EdgeRouter PoE 5
Ubiquiti UniFi AP-AC-Pro

EdgeRouter is connected to the cable modem downstairs. A Cat 6 riser takes net and 48V PoE power from the EdgeRouter to the AP on the house stairwell (most central location). The AP has a second RJ-45, leading to the rest of the home network.

Thanks for that run down of your setup. It helps.

JJ

 

[judson_w]

People love the sound of a Class A amp. Class A has a sound profile different from A/B, B, D, etc.

At least so far as I have read here and elsewhere. I'm young and haven't been exposed to class A yet. Plus they make great space heaters.

I have a Class A push-pull integrated tube amp. I can confirm it is a wonderful musical space heater.

 

[TomSix]

[/QUOTE]="So for me my Klipsch KG 4 at 6 ohm would pull 30 wpc class A with monoblocks, for $1600!

94 db 1 watt x 30= loud as hell.

DELETE

 

[TomSix]

I understand that class A is harder to get the same wattage out of than something like class A/B, I understand what makes a pure class A amp more expensive then a different more efficient topology. You cvan show me expensive class a amps but we know thats not what Schiit does, They make what was expensive relativity reasonable. Which is why I am thrown I guess. Is 10 or 20 watts in class A louder than 10 or 20 watts of class A/B? Watts is watts right? Thats what is losing me. I guess when I see the amp I see something that will power a nice set of bookshelf speakers and could sounds really great doing it, but not really much else. I feel like Im missing a piece to the puzzle here and I want to know what it is. I know Schiit makes great stuff and usually when I see a product they release I can be like oh yeah thats cool, but honesty this is throwing me. I mean its cool but I dont understand why its a big deal. Unless you are telling me that we have gotten too caught up in power number and we are grossly overpowering out speakers..which I could definitely believe.

again this not not me hating or being argumentative or anything like that. I just really dont understand hype. Which may not be surprising because the extent of my speaker and amp buying is for home theater. I was never all that into a straight stereo setup, that was what my headphones were for. Lately though Ive been wanting to do a 2 channel setup in my living room for a turntable so in trying to figure this all out.

I'll try and give a reasonably simplified outline that hits on a few key facts:

Class-A operation has the key virtue of producing much lower levels of certain types of distortions, and essentially none of other types of distortion (such as cross-over distortions) as compared with other classes of operation such as the commonly employed Class-AB operation.

In Class-A operation, a very steady draw of averaged current is drawn from the power supply at all times. In contrast, an amplifier running in, for example, Class-AB operation draws widely varying amounts of current from the power supply in-step with the waveform of the signal (music) being amplified. The Class-AB amplifier effectively 'modulates' the power-supply circuitry itself, and various types of distortions can thereby be produced.

Also: In a Class-A amplifier, the amplification device/s (tube or transistor) are always 'turned-on", and every output tube or transistor amplifies a full 360 degrees of the wave cycle. Class-AB amplifiers, in contrast, must divide the full wave cycle between complementary pair/s of amplifying devices (again, tubes of transistors) so that each half-side of this complimentary pair only amplifies *less* than 360 degrees of the full wave cycle (usually just a little over half of the wave cycle) and then "handing off'' the amplification of the remainder of the wave cycle amplification duties to the opposite device/s. A result of this process is that the amplification devices turn on-and-off during each wave cycle, and all types of amplifying devices (tubes or transistors) produce distortions in the regions of the wave cycle wherein the device is transitioning either on or off. This is commonly known as 'cross-over distortion'.

Although Class-A produces a lower level of distortion, the output devices effectively stay 'on' continuously, drawing a relatively heavy current, and so the maximum theoretical efficiency of Class-A amplifiers is much less than Class-AB amplifiers which draw much lower (lower quiescent and lower average) current. For a given rated output power, a Class-A amplifier will consume much more supply power than a Class-AB amplifier of the same audio power rating, and will always have to be considerably physically larger to handle this extra power consumption. Unfortunately, there are no clever ways that have yet been devised to effectively avoid this efficiency penalty.

Is it worth it? The positive difference in sound quality produced by well-designed Class-A amps is usually readily apparent subjectively -- the difference is generally not minor.

So.... we often end up deciding to take the efficiency loss and resultant cost-per-watt penalty in order to achieve the very clean and engaging sound reproduction of a Class-A amplifier. Fortunately, there are a good number of relatively high-sensitivity loudspeakers available these days, and so there really doesn't have to be a penalty in terms of maximum desired SPL in most listening environments.

An interesting example: Consider the Lamm Industries ML2.2 power amplifier. It is an all-tube Class-A single-ended mono-block amplifier (two are used as a stereo pair) which is rated at *only* 18-Watts-per-channel maximum output power. Various iterations of this amp have been continuously on the market for over 15 years, and many seasoned reviewers still consider such Lamm amplifiers to have few, if any, peers in terms of absolute quality of sound reproduction. Have a look at some of the prestigious awards and rave professional reviews associated with this *only* 18-WPC amplifier:

https://lammindustries.com/pages/power-amplifiers-ml2-2/

I hope the above provides a bit of insight and some helpful food for thought

 

[nicoch46]

I think the 20 Watts were "Continuity", class A is less (10 watts?), normal class A amps generally output less than their 8 Ohm max. into lower impedances, as in class A they are limited by the bias current.
6 Ohm is lower than 8 Ohm and if you mono (bridge) them each amp half is seeing half the speaker impedance so maybe lower still.

e.g. Sugden A21ai Series 2 class A amp can do 24 Watts into 8 Ohms but only 14 Watts into 4 Ohms (@ 1% THD+N)
https://www.stereophile.com/content/sugden-a21ai-series-2-integrated-amplifier-measurements
so with channels bridged to mono you may not get much more than as a stereo amp, class A into 6 Ohms (but more than 100 "Continuity" Watts bridged into 6 Ohm)

94 db 1 watt x 30= 109 dB @ 1 Metre

Ægir ,

all wrong
jiammers class A watt pushpull double the Watt on 4 and bias limited only the class A because then go in AB
the A21 half power on 4 is because is single ended ,not A problem... and yes the bias limited the power on SE

 

[FLTWS]

Here's my college dropouts

LOL! They both got that "livin' with mom and dad forever" tude' in their expressions.

 

[KoshNaranek]

Which access point are you using?

And which hardwired router are you using?

JJ

Router: IPFire running on a miniITX board with 2 intel Gigabit NICs and 3rd generation i3 laptop CPU.

Wireless AP: 5 Ubiquiti AC Pro units of varying models

I have yet to tune the radio outputs. If I decrease the output, it is supposed to improve handoff from the various APs. It has been a chronic item on my to do list.

 

[Paladin79]

Aegir pronunciation (?):

Good post! Now if we get into the Norse pronunciation of other Schiit products whose names are more complex, it will be very tricky lol.

https://notendur.hi.is/haukurth/norse/articles/pronunc.html

I had more background in romantic languages so my guesses were based on those. The tricky thing is how some of the words might carry over into English and Aegir is not real common.

 

[Paladin79]

Also: In a Class-A amplifier, the amplification device/s (tube or transistor) are always 'turned-on", and every output tube or transistor amplifies a full 360 degrees of the wave cycle. Class-AB amplifiers, in contrast, must divide the full wave cycle between complementary pair/s of amplifying devices (again, tubes of transistors) so that each half-side of this complimentary pair only amplifies *less* than 360 degrees of the full wave cycle (usually just a little over half of the wave cycle) and then "handing off'' the amplification of the remainder of the wave cycle amplification duties to the opposite device/s. A result of this process is that the amplification devices turn on-and-off during each wave cycle, and all types of amplifying devices (tubes or transistors) produce distortions in the regions of the wave cycle wherein the device is transitioning either on or off. This is commonly known as 'cross-over distortion'.

Although Class-A produces a lower level of distortion, the output devices effectively stay 'on' continuously, drawing a relatively heavy current, and so the maximum theoretical efficiency of Class-A amplifiers is much less than Class-AB amplifiers which draw much lower (lower quiescent and lower average) current. For a given rated output power, a Class-A amplifier will consume much more supply power than a Class-AB amplifier of the same audio power rating, and will always have to be considerably physically larger to handle this extra power consumption. Unfortunately, there are no clever ways that have yet been devised to effectively avoid this efficiency penalty.

Is it worth it? The positive difference in sound quality produced by well-designed Class-A amps is usually readily apparent subjectively -- the difference is generally not minor.

Very well said Tom!

I will only add that there are cheaper ways to try out Class A before you invest in new speakers. I have at least five class A headphone amps that range from $200 to $2000, most any of those coupled with Sennheiser 650 or equivalent headphones can give you a pretty good indication if you want to get into efficient speakers and low wattage speaker amps. As far as Schiit Class A I have the Valhalla 2 headphone amp/preamp that is single ended triode. I enjoy speakers as well as headphones but YMMV.

 

[nicoch46]

Single ended is always Class A , push pull can be A ,B or AB
what change se to pp is thd profile H2 vs H3 ,dumping factor ,power ...this Shiit have all

 

[Paladin79]

My setup:

Ubiquiti EdgeRouter PoE 5
Ubiquiti UniFi AP-AC-Pro

EdgeRouter is connected to the cable modem downstairs. A Cat 6 riser takes net and 48V PoE power from the EdgeRouter to the AP on the house stairwell (most central location). The AP has a second RJ-45, leading to the rest of the home network.

I may just go with an antenna for now. My son will be visiting over Xmas and he generally looks at my setup, shakes his head, then goes out and buys me more equipment and he definitely likes Ubiquiti. I am building him a Schiit Coaster amp, this seems like a fair trade to me.

 

[KoshNaranek]

I may just go with an antenna for now. My son will be visiting over Xmas and he generally looks at my setup, shakes his head, then goes out and buys me more equipment and he definitely likes Ubiquiti. I am building him a Schiit Coaster amp, this seems like a fair trade to me.

Sounds like what I do for my father. I'm planning ahead for my next visit and already had the equipment delivered

 

[Paladin79]

Sounds like what I do for my father. I'm planning ahead for my next visit and already had the equipment delivered

That is a classy thing to do.