Schiit Gungnir DAC
Apr 14, 2022 at 8:32 AM Post #6,511 of 7,049
That's where I found the difference in resolution to be most obvious. The clarity of decay of snare hits particularly, but all drum hits; the extra detail in the wash of cymbals; being able to more clearly here the character of the recording environment/reverb, etc., this all adds to drums sounding more real. The extra resolution also has the added benefit of being to better identify gear, the type of drums, how they're tuned, heads used, the brand of cymbals, etc., details often hidden by production techniques/lost in the mix. I'd caution you by saying what you listen to likely makes a difference, but as you can see from my post, I went through a decent range of music; the difference in resolution was apparent across it.

I was hoping to not hear a significant enough difference so I could happily keep the BF2 and sell the Gungnir on, save myself some cash, but alas, the differences were obvious to me...
Thanks so much! People that aren't drummers, just don't know how it sounds...to us. We get that first initial hit because we are so close, that first millisecond when you hit the skin or the cymbal. Also, things like being able to tell the difference between a wooden tip stick or a nylon are the little things I look for, and like what you said....type of drums, tuning, etc. If the Gungnir has that little bit of extra resolution, I would consider it an upgrade. Thanks again for your thoughts! Most appreciated.
 
Apr 14, 2022 at 12:55 PM Post #6,512 of 7,049
I have both BF2 and Gungnir A2 gen 5 USB.

It's easier to tell them apart on my headphone setups then my 2 channel setup. I prefer the Gungnir on my headphone setups using USB on both. Gungnir is more detailed and appears not to slam as hard (slightly) but is also less bloomy and more detailed. BF2 is more masked in the lows and more one note though, Gungnir has much better definition and separation of frequencies. Slightly dryer sounding but in a positive and better way.
 
Apr 27, 2022 at 12:15 PM Post #6,516 of 7,049
Gungnir MultiBit supposedly went through a silent revision a couple years ago. Community calls it A1 and A2. From what I've read A1 is more analog sounding smooth/refined. A2 has a sonic signature a bit more aggressive. I have not heard an A2 (newer) version. I know some people seek one over the other.

Mine is A1 and I upgraded to Unison USB.
 
Apr 27, 2022 at 5:29 PM Post #6,517 of 7,049
Gungnir MultiBit supposedly went through a silent revision a couple years ago. Community calls it A1 and A2. From what I've read A1 is more analog sounding smooth/refined. A2 has a sonic signature a bit more aggressive. I have not heard an A2 (newer) version. I know some people seek one over the other.

Mine is A1 and I upgraded to Unison USB.
I think the change was in '17. Mine is an A1, upgraded to USB. I liked it better than the Yggy at the time (early '16) Agree it's more pleasing to an analog head than the A2. Will never sell it. Only the HE-500 is on that same list.
 
Apr 27, 2022 at 6:28 PM Post #6,518 of 7,049
I've had my A1 Gungnir since 2013, upgraded it to Multibit, but still running Gen 2 USB, and I love the sound. I am going to spring for Unison USB soon, though, looking forward to the improvements it brings.
 
May 2, 2022 at 6:22 PM Post #6,519 of 7,049
I've had my A1 Gungnir since 2013, upgraded it to Multibit, but still running Gen 2 USB, and I love the sound. I am going to spring for Unison USB soon, though, looking forward to the improvements it brings.
I've heard the Unison brings a definite improvement especially over Gen2 and even over Gen5, which I still have. I just don't want to send in my DAC and be without it. I went from Gen2 to Gen5 and it was a big improvement for me. At the same time, I went from A1 to A2 analog stage, which was indeed a real thing. I was a beta tester for Mike on the A2. I think it was to qualify back-up parts for the Gungnir ... not really a SQ change.

Thanks so much! People that aren't drummers, just don't know how it sounds...to us. We get that first initial hit because we are so close, that first millisecond when you hit the skin or the cymbal. Also, things like being able to tell the difference between a wooden tip stick or a nylon are the little things I look for, and like what you said....type of drums, tuning, etc. If the Gungnir has that little bit of extra resolution, I would consider it an upgrade. Thanks again for your thoughts! Most appreciated.
Very interesting. I am a big fan of great drumming (my latest - Brian Blade) and can clearly hear the different drum and cymbal tones with the Gumby DAC. The drums sound real, to me. Can honestly say I probably wouldn't know the difference between drumsticks, however. You must be a drummer, @emorrison33 ... what else should I be listening for? Thanks, mate.
 
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May 3, 2022 at 3:13 PM Post #6,520 of 7,049
I've heard the Unison brings a definite improvement especially over Gen2 and even over Gen5, which I still have. I just don't want to send in my DAC and be without it. I went from Gen2 to Gen5 and it was a big improvement for me. At the same time, I went from A1 to A2 analog stage, which was indeed a real thing. I was a beta tester for Mike on the A2. I think it was to qualify back-up parts for the Gungnir ... not really a SQ change.


Very interesting. I am a big fan of great drumming (my latest - Brian Blade) and can clearly hear the different drum and cymbal tones with the Gumby DAC. The drums sound real, to me. Can honestly say I probably wouldn't know the difference between drumsticks, however. You must be a drummer, @emorrison33 ... what else should I be listening for? Thanks, mate.
Well, now that's a loaded question! LOL Can you personally tell the difference as to WHERE the drummer is hitting the drum or cymbal? There is a difference on cymbals especially, the "bell", the edge, the middle. If yes, then we can go from there....probably be better for a PM kinda thing. We can go deep, even get into specifics in the tuning of the heads, or even what make the drums are. Get song specific. We seem to have the same taste in music though, if I go from posts on "What are you listening to right now?" thread.
 
May 3, 2022 at 3:40 PM Post #6,521 of 7,049
Certainly the cymbal strikes, and somewhat on the drum strikes themselves. I don't know much at all about drum tuning. I have a pal in Tel Aviv who's a pro drummer and he sends YouTubes by e.g. Simon Phillips about certain drumming techniques. I really favor drumming with passion so more jazz-oriented over guys like Billy Cobham. And, to me, rock drumming is necessary but kinda boring. If you can recommend drummers who you like, via PM, that would be cool. Thanks in advance :)
 
May 3, 2022 at 11:14 PM Post #6,522 of 7,049
OK, I promised this weeks ago, and here it finally is:

As a bit of a refresher, the story behind my Gungnir DACs is: I bought a Gungnir delta-sigma after enjoying my Bifrost I multi-bit simply to find out if climbing the Schiit ladder would bring any benefits which were meaningful to me. The Bifrost was my first foray into outboard DACs (after thirty-five years as an audio hobbyist), and it was a revelation. Up until Bifrost was delivered I’d been using the analog outputs of my DAPs to drive my Mjolnir I amp and HiFiMAN HE-500 head phones. I’d been frustrated with the lack of bass presence and had been looking for different head phones to scratch that itch. Along came Bifrost II, which made Bifrost I multi-bit affordable enough as a close-out I couldn’t resist trying it. That worked so well I wondered if Gungnir would be as big a step up, so I bought one.

Gungnir delta-sigma proved to be good enough I wanted to try the multi-bit version, so off it went to California for more bits. But, of course, I couldn’t do a proper comparison since I no longer had a delta-sigma. So, I bought another delta-sigma and here we are.

What I Listened to: My Gungnirs are in my living room system:
PC using JRiver Media Center -> Gungnir -> Sys -> Aegir.

The Aegir powers either my HiFiMAN HE-500 or Stax SRD-7/ SR Lambda head phones. I’ve had the former for ten years or so and the latter for a couple of years, so both are familiar, long-term references for me.

First impressions: My first impressions are the reason I decided to buy another Gungnir and write about this face-off. OK, sure, my Gungnir was gone for five weeks or so getting bitted-up, so once it came back, any comparisons I could do were from memory. Be that as it may, contrary to the majority of folk who have voiced their opinions, I wasn’t wowed by the Gungnir multi-bit. The vast majority of the music I was listening to: rock, pop and jazz with electric and electronic instruments, didn’t prove to be good vehicles for judging the differences between the units. I needed some concentrated listening to music played with acoustic instruments.

Soundstage: All of my time with my Gungnirs is spent with head phones. Sound staging is not something I’m good at judging when listening to head phones. I miss too many spatial cues.

I’ll dispense with most of the discussion about frequency response. Here are a couple of things I noticed:
  • Cymbals rendered by the delta-sigma are a bit more artificial-sounding compared to the multi-bit card to my ear. It’s not that the top end is offensive or fatiguing, but more bits equals “more smoother”, more shimmer instead of more brassy metallic sound (and not in a good way).
  • The delta-sigma is sharper in the mids, to me distractingly so. Unfortunately, there’s a peak which emphasized those notes in a biting way. It brought back memories of staying away from metal dome tweeters during the ‘90s because I didn’t like “hot treble”. In addition, the upper mids and highs were a bit shallower, more brittle sounding when reduced to one bit than when reproduced by a chorus of bits.
  • Multi-bit bass was stronger and fuller than delta-sigma bass. The difference is, most of the time to me, subtle, but it’s there.

I found two albums quite telling while I was comparing these two DACs head-to-head. The first was Keith Jarrett’s The Koln Concert. Through the multi-bit version, Keith’s piano was more whole-sounding. I could hear the strike of the hammer, the initial fundamental and then, as the note decayed, I could hear the fundamental bloom into all the harmonics and overtones as well as blend with the resonance of the sound board. All this happening with a sense of left-to-right placement across the full width of the key board. With the delta-sigma variation, the notes simply weren’t as full or as detailed. The transient and decay were there, but much of the harmonic bloom and resonance were missing. In addition, with the stronger bass of the multi-bit version, Keith’s rhythm was easier to hear through the melody of his right-hand playing.

The second album was the soundtrack for Blade Runner: 2049. This album dispelled any doubt for me: Gungnir multi-bit has stronger, more nuanced, more detailed bass than Gungnir delta-sigma. I really think the multi-bit has bass up in level a bit compared to the delta-sigma. But more than that, there is more weight, more impact, more life at the music’s foundation.

Conclusion: In a nutshell: Gungnir multi-bit > Gungnir delta-sigma > Bifrost I multi-bit > Modi multi-bit. I’ve not heard a Modi delta-sigma, and I’ve said numerous times Gungnir has satisfied my curiosity and I am not interested in Yggdrasil anymore. Not that I think Yggdrasil is not an improvement over Gungnir, I’m sure it is. Even without hearing it, though, I am confident the extras brought by Yggdrasil would either be inaudible to me, or not important to me. Gungnir represents the highest I am willing to climb on the curve of diminishing returns.

Now that is out of the way, here is my reasoning. I’ve listened to my son’s Modi multi-bit from time to time and it’s great. My Bifrost I multi-bit is greater. There is a noticeable increase in dimensionality to the music, more nuance, more detail. Music is more complete, a bass-to-treble increase in detail and richness. Making the step up to Gungnir delta-sigma brought not so much detail as refinement. Gungnir’s treble is smoother than Bifrost’s (remember, Bifrost I...). Bifrost’s is extended, but a bit harsher, a bit more fatiguing. Similarly, bass isn’t as even, either in response or in timbre, from Bifrost as from Gungnir. To me, Bifrost I emphasized low bass over mid-bass which gives it the power I like so much. But Gungnir has more even bass level from the low midrange all the way down to subterranean rumble. Add to that the smoothness of the sound as well as more realized, fleshed-out notes, and Gungnir has more to offer. Gungnir multi-bit adds even a touch more of the latter to what the delta-sigma version brings. I think the Gungnir is a worthwhile upgrade over Bifrost I multi-bit. If I am “just listening”, Gungnir is smoother and is fatigue free. However, if I am listening more critically the extra details are there for me to hear.

Delta-sigma versus multi-bit for me is a harder question. Spoiler: I’m going to keep my multi-bit. But looking at it from a value perspective makes for a harder analysis. Gungnir delta-sigma is good enough that with a bit of time and “brain burn” I didn’t miss the multi-bit sound very much. And let’s face it, the cost of the extra bits is pretty steep compared to the delta-sigma version. Even more true now with the used prices of Gungnir delta-sigma.

I’ve been asked “the value question” directly in the here in this thread, so here it is: if you want the most detail available but cannot or do not want to afford an Yggdrasil, Gungnir multi-bit offers more than either Bifrost I multi-bit or Gungnir delta-sigma. To me, especially if you listen primarily to “small group” music, multi-bit shows its capabilities even more than if you prefer large ensembles. The more complex the arrangements got, the more the differences between the Gungnir multi-bit and delta-sigma got lost to me. For others, though, it may me exactly the opposite: the complexity of music played by dozens of instruments may be exactly when the greater detail of the multi-bit shines. Those are my two cents.
 
May 3, 2022 at 11:35 PM Post #6,523 of 7,049
I have the Rag 1. I have heard the Rag 2. The Rag 1 can drive speakers very well (KEF, Magnepan .7i, Focal, etc.) And has enough kick using balanced can cables to easily drive the HE-6.

It's big advantages over the 2 is that's it's Class A to 4 wpc while the 2 just goes to 1, and used its probably under $850. The disadvantage is it runs very warm, the 2 is an ice cube, and the pre amp in the 1 shortens the far left and right soundstage a bit. It can be heard but it does not normally damage the music and mostly it's not a factor. The 2 seems to handle it better. The low bass is better in the 2, but the bass of the 1 is well above average. I thought the treble on the 2 was sort of wild but it was a very early unit. The 1 treble can be a hair mechanical.

The Gumby MB a1 is a gem. It has the liquidity to take the treble of the 1, and the way the pair handles decay is wonderful. I find the Gumby MB a2 since it debuted in '17 to be brighter - more on the Sabre side of digital sounding making it less ideal to pair w the Rag 1 and the Rag 2 but far from a dog. I do not endorse the non MB versions.

I wonder how competent a Rag 1/2 would be with driving something like a Susvara or OG HE6.
I don't own a Ragnarok, but coincidentally, I just bought a pair of HE-6 from a fellow Head-Fier. In my bedroom I drive them with a Mjolnir I. At first, I didn't think Thor's hammer had enough oomph. But, surprisingly, the HE-6 sound very credible at low levels (they are better in this respect than my HE-500), so the Mjolnir I does well with them. Even when I want to crank it, I don't have to turn the volume knob "hard over", but I don't have much left when I get to what I consider "ludicrous speed".

In my living room system, I use an Aegir. The HE-6 (and the HE-500 and my Stax) sound great with that amp. Plenty of power, plenty of head room, plenty of air and speed. That said, the Aegir doesn't sound great with every head phone I've tried. I had a tour pair of the Kennerton Rognir for a couple of weeks, and those head phones liked the Mjolnir I better than the Aegir. I decided the reason was an impedance mismatch: the Aegir was designed for 8 Ohm loads and didn't like the 42 Ohms of the Rognir. Of course, the HE-500 and HE-6 are even a bit higher (50 Ohms or so, I think), so maybe that wasn't the reason. Another contributing factor may be efficiency: the Rognir are much more efficient that the HiFiMAN head phones, and thus didn't allow me to turn the volume knob up as much. Might have kept the Aegir at too low an output level, into a load it wasn't comfortable with, when I had the Rognir.


I think the change was in '17. Mine is an A1, upgraded to USB. I liked it better than the Yggy at the time (early '16) Agree it's more pleasing to an analog head than the A2. Will never sell it. Only the HE-500 is on that same list.
I love my HE-500. I've had them for at least ten years. Until two weeks ago, they had been upgrade-proof. But then the HE-6 arrived...

Like you, though, I'm keeping my HE-500.

I've heard the Unison brings a definite improvement especially over Gen2 and even over Gen5, which I still have. I just don't want to send in my DAC and be without it. I went from Gen2 to Gen5 and it was a big improvement for me. At the same time, I went from A1 to A2 analog stage, which was indeed a real thing. I was a beta tester for Mike on the A2. I think it was to qualify back-up parts for the Gungnir ... not really a SQ change.


Very interesting. I am a big fan of great drumming (my latest - Brian Blade) and can clearly hear the different drum and cymbal tones with the Gumby DAC. The drums sound real, to me. Can honestly say I probably wouldn't know the difference between drumsticks, however. You must be a drummer, @emorrison33 ... what else should I be listening for? Thanks, mate.
I'm listening to my first album with Brian Blade right now. I think you're the one who posted the Chick Corea Trio Trilogy on the "What Are You Listening to Right Now" thread?

I can't believe anyone would say rock drumming can be boring. '80s rock or pop-rock was the apex of drumming world-wide. There is no way to improve on bum-bum ba/bum time-keeping.
 
May 4, 2022 at 9:41 AM Post #6,524 of 7,049
I can't believe anyone would say rock drumming can be boring. '80s rock or pop-rock was the apex of drumming world-wide. There is no way to improve on bum-bum ba/bum time-keeping.
I just did. Depends on your definition of "drumming." :)
 
May 4, 2022 at 3:58 PM Post #6,525 of 7,049

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