SACD II to be Announced in September
Jul 21, 2003 at 2:55 PM Post #2 of 85
Quote:

So what of backward-compatibility? Current stand-alone SACD players will not be able to access any video material simply because of their lack of video playback circuitry, but how about combination DVD/SACD machines? While they have the video hardware required, speculation surrounds the nature of the video encoding upon SACD II discs and whether they will be allowed to take advantage of DVD-Video technologies, all of which are tightly controlled by the DVD Forum, and they might decide to withhold licensing in an attempt to protect their own format (DVD-Audio).

The situation surrounding straightforward audio playback on legacy machines is also uncertain, will an SACD II disc with heightened encryption be readable by any of the current SACD players? This is the most important aspect for existing users, but if Sony/Philips are sensible the answer will be “yes”. However, we do know that full SACD II capabilities will become mandatory within all newly produced players by the year 2007, which will mean the slow demise of the SACD format as we know it today.

The introduction of SACD II is interesting in a number of ways, not least of which being the format’s move towards replicating some of DVD-Audio’s capabilities, especially in light of an impending hybrid DVD-Audio disc – the ‘Dual Disc’ – which will boast DVD-Audio/Video content on one side and CD on the other.

Of course, the irony of all this is that with SACD II affording video playback opportunities to content providers and Dual Disc bringing a CD layer to DVD-Audio titles, the market might end up with two formats that are essentially identical in terms of playback functionality. The arguments in favour of one or the other will then come down to personal preference, label allegiance, available production tools and software selection rather than features and/or playback compatibility.


This sucks on any number of levels.
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Only changes in SACD 2 it appears will be the ability to add video content to SACDs (just like DVD-A) and better encryption to prevent piracy. Will this mean the SACD 2s will be like DVD-As where you have to navigate menus on a TV screen before you can play? That would just PISS me off!

And if SACD2 discs are incompatible with existing SACDPs, well I would personally march down to Sony HQ and hurl my 555ES Hot Rod through the front windows. And what if your collection of SACDs won't play back on SACD 2 machines? I can't imagine they'd do that, though, that would completely kill whatever goodwill there was out there for SACD. They would completely alienate and upset their early adopters, their crucial market at this time, it would be the death-knell for the format, IMO. They must realize this, so I am at least 95% certain that SACD 2 will be fully backwards compatible.

Of course once SACD 2 is announced, I wonder about resale value of today's players (not that digital sources hold much value, but *still*). This sucks all the way around, these changes don't really benefit the customer, unless you're keen on flipping through pictures of the artist whose album you're listening to.

Booo! Hisssssssss!!!!
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Mark
 
Jul 21, 2003 at 3:22 PM Post #3 of 85
wow, leave it to sony to screw the pooch.. YET A-****ING-GAIN!

sacd 2? what is going on in their heads? please tell me this is some fake rumor or something..
 
Jul 21, 2003 at 3:29 PM Post #4 of 85
Nope. It is all over audioasylum.com, steve hoffman's site and other places. Really disappointing. Find a format that you like and spend money on and then this. Wow. Oh well shame on me for getting pulled in by the new "Quad".

Back to vinyl time.
 
Jul 21, 2003 at 3:30 PM Post #5 of 85
Is this Betamax part II?? (deja vu all over again)

The emergence of digital TV and home theater has forced Sony's hand to do something...........or let DVD-A/V take the market.
 
Jul 21, 2003 at 3:35 PM Post #6 of 85
what is going through their minds? a high-resolution format that *ZERO* of my consumer friends/co-workers even KNOW about, and already they're redesigning it for that demographic? what is WRONG with them?!

i'm sure all the $200 5.1 surround sound system buying sheep of this country cannot WAIT to buy the three hundred and sixty-second remaster of Dark Side of the Moon. they cannot****ingwait to setup this incredible album and be able to.. LOOK AT A PHOTO GALLERY! what's next? they going to include a dolby surround ac3 track on each sacd as well?

well this screams at me the death of sacd. at the moment i plan on boycotting all this crap. any further spending on my source requirements will be on a P300 or vpi scout. screw you sony, and your headphones suck too!
 
Jul 21, 2003 at 4:21 PM Post #10 of 85
OK, now that I've vented a little and had a chance to think about it a bit, we really don't have any concrete info yet, just rumor at this time. Possibly pre-mature for any 555ES Hot Rod hurling.
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Upon reflection, this is really less drastic than when Sony switched from 2-channel SACD (all first-gen SACDPs only played back 2-channels) to the newer multi-channel units. This made all previous 2-channel SACDPs (SCD-1, 777ES, 333ES) basically obsolete. But of course newer multi-channel discs still play back on old 2-channel machines as the multi-channel discs have a standard 2-channel hi-rez mix on them. "SACD2", *if* it is as rumored, seems to me to be less of a change-over than it was when they added multi-channel capability. If they can make multi-channel discs backwards compatible with 2-channel machines, they can find a way to add video without making them unplayable on today's SACDPs. Also, the article does say that the ability to add video has always been in the spec, so it's not like they hadn't thought ahead about this when they first released SACD. This therefore should not require some whole new re-architecting of the SACD for SACD2 that will prohibit backwards compatibility.

I doubt Sony are complete morons, it's not like they live on some other planet and do not understand us humans. I'm 99.999999999% certain that *if* there is an SACD 2 it will be backward compatible with existing SACD players.

In the receiver market and DVD player market, they are constantly adding new badges to the front of the player to support new audio standards that do not prohibit backwards compatibility (Pro Logic 2, Dolby EX, DTS ES, etc.). There's no way Sony is going to be stupid enough to obsolete SACD as we know it today with SACD2.

I think realistic worst case scenario for SACD 2 are the following:

1. Audible watermarking for enhanced copy protection as they do on DVD-Audio. This is a very low level sort of "noise" that is introduced to make copying impossible, but some people claim this noise intrudes into audible frequencies on hi-rez discs.

2. Loss of resale value on today's standard SACDPs. OTOH, SACDPs without a video section will be more "audiophile", as video circuitry needed for SACD2 can introduce noise to the player. This may make older players without a video section somewhat more desirable, but that's probably wishful thinking. In any case digital sources lose lots of their value fast precisely because things change so rapidly in the digital world.

3. SACD2s will require you to hunt through on-screen menus to select the desired audio track. This will only happen if SACD2 discs are not backwards compatible at all with current SACDPs. I don't think that's very likely at all.

Mark
 
Jul 21, 2003 at 5:17 PM Post #11 of 85
Perhaps this should be moved to members lounge or the sources forum. This is gonna get interesting.
-Mag
 
Jul 21, 2003 at 5:39 PM Post #12 of 85
Upon still further reflection, something else occurred to me.

In your CD collection right now you probably have at least one or more of these so-called "enhanced CDs". These discs have additional multi-media stuff on them that can obviously only be accessed via your computer's CD ROM drive. However, the fact that this multimedia material is on the CD does not mean you can't play the audio on your stand-alone CDP, your portable CDP, your car stereo, etc.

I strongly doubt that this extra multimedia content will make SACD2 discs unplayable on current SACDPs, especially when SACD was designed to add this content at a later date.
Quote:

What I don't undestand it that, aside form money, what exactly is the motivation behind them doing this. Is it the format wars, or do they just have nothing better to do?


It's the same market forces that drove Sony to go ahead with multi-channel SACDs, they simply want to keep up with DVD-Audio, maintain feature parity. I think this is just a strategic move to keep SACD viable. Probably comparable to when Dolby Digital added "EX" and two extra rear channels to keep parity with DTS ES (or vice-versa). One wonders if the record companies who are backing SACD instead of DVD-A maybe wanted to be able to include extra video content to keep their releases up to speed with their DVD-A competitors? Who knows?

The point is it's all just speculation and rumors for now, but I'm not that worried about it anymore.

Mark
 
Jul 21, 2003 at 6:34 PM Post #14 of 85
Hmm, unencrypted audio, available through many online avenues and reputable vendors, proven equipment for well over 50 plus years, great audio dynamics. What's this I speak of? None other than the great old turntable.
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I'll till keep my SACD player and hope that it remains backwards compatible. But I'm adding a turntable to my source list and enjoy the format that is still around and not being tinkered with by the digital rights management world.
 
Jul 21, 2003 at 6:52 PM Post #15 of 85
Quote:

Originally posted by markl

I doubt Sony are complete morons, it's not like they live on some other planet and do not understand us humans.


Actually, the "morons from another planet" hypothesis explains some of Sony's marketing and service policies very nicely.
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