ROCK songs sound WAAAY TOO muddy. Why?

Mar 11, 2007 at 9:00 AM Thread Starter Post #1 of 18

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Headphoneus Supremus
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Rock songs (more specifically, during fast riffs) sound muddy on my DAP.

Source: ZVM
Phones: Etymotic ER6s/EP630s.
Flat EQ.

Also tried elevating EQ settings (bass/treble) but that didn't help. It DOES sound beautiful until it gets to those fast rock guitar riffs. Then, it seems that I'm using another pair of headphones entirely. Those riffs sound too recessed: FM quality muddy.
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Mind telling me what EQ settings to use with my MP3 player?
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Keep in mind that the Ep630s have enhanced bass and recessed mids. Thanks.
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Mar 11, 2007 at 11:08 AM Post #2 of 18
I think it has mostly to do with the song itself. Excessive dynamics compression especially seems to make it sound really bad, and it's most noticeable to me during the kind of sections you mentioned. I don't think there's anything you can do with a basic equalizer to fix your problem. I guess you could try boosting the mids to flatten it out more (250, 1k, and possibly 4k on your pic) if the mids are recessed.
 
Mar 11, 2007 at 11:16 AM Post #3 of 18
just a general tip... equalizers on DAP's etc tend to work better if you never 'boost' anything (raising frequencies into the + region) but if you inversely lower the opposite frequencies (lowering them into the - region).

For example with Sony minidiscs, the lowest band only reaches to 100Hz, so boosting bass is only raising mid-bass and the lowest frequencies will sound even softer (relatively speaking). On the other hand, lowering all bands one notch, effectively raises deep-bass as only >100Hz gets lowered and everything <100Hz remains at the original level. This is only one case. But in general non-complex eq's like in DAPs tend to work better when lowering below 0 than for raising (for lots of reasons like the one described above, but also for avoiding distortion/clipping etc.)
 
Mar 11, 2007 at 2:53 PM Post #4 of 18
I'm working on the same problem, with a similar player/equaliser, with similar music. Problem is the output isn't high to start with, and lowering the equaliser settings doesn't help in that respect, but is a good tip. Because of the fairly high bass with the EP-630s, you would have to lower the bass EQ settings quite a lot to make the mids stand out more. I have several much more balanced buds that require no equalisation to suit me, but they're not as good for staying in the ears when moving about. So much for tonal balance. As for muddiness, I largely blame the DACs and then the amps, they seem to work much better with "airier" music. Yeah, the recording compression sure doesn't help, but it sounds good enough on the big system (i.e. Maggies/ACI or Stax), so it's not just the recording's fault here.

I think many compromises have to be made if you want a real small portable system. If I'm sitting still and concentrating on the music, my requirements are much different than if I'm moving around. But yes, I do want to make what I have sound as good as possible. There is no doubt the EP-630s are part of the problem, but you'll have to pay a fair bit more to get their benefits plus a better tonal balance. Based on my basic tests by ear, they have a very noticeable drop in the voice frequency range, about 500-3000Hz it seems to me, with the stock tips (Etymotic tips drastically change and improve this, but they have their own drawbacks). This is unfortunate if you listen to lots of heavy metal/guitar music, and especially so when there are vocals! I will go back and try lowering the bass and highs on the EQ. If you haven't done it, it's a good idea to make a bunch of mp3 files of 10s each of various sine wave frequencies. Save them on your DAP, it doesn't take much room, and you can get a better idea of what you're dealing with.

If you find some buds "similar" to the EP-630 in fit, but better tonally balanced, that work much better with your Creative DAP, I'd sure like to hear about them! I am very limited in what I can listen to around here in IEMs. In fact the "best" was the bottom of the line Shure and it had its own shortcomings for a MUCH higher price. They wouldn't make me significantly more happy. I really want to hear any fancier IEMs before buying, I don't want to start a collection. I have a pretty good idea how the recordings should sound, I have quite a lot of gear here, much known for its relative lack of coloration. I sure don't expect to duplicate the sound from a complete "system" I can wrap my hand around, but I'm willing to go to a certain length to make it better as long as it doesn't get any futzier to deal with in daily use.
 
Mar 11, 2007 at 3:15 PM Post #5 of 18
Quote:

Originally Posted by Televator /img/forum/go_quote.gif
just a general tip... equalizers on DAP's etc tend to work better if you never 'boost' anything (raising frequencies into the + region) but if you inversely lower the opposite frequencies (lowering them into the - region).

For example with Sony minidiscs, the lowest band only reaches to 100Hz, so boosting bass is only raising mid-bass and the lowest frequencies will sound even softer (relatively speaking). On the other hand, lowering all bands one notch, effectively raises deep-bass as only >100Hz gets lowered and everything <100Hz remains at the original level. This is only one case. But in general non-complex eq's like in DAPs tend to work better when lowering below 0 than for raising (for lots of reasons like the one described above, but also for avoiding distortion/clipping etc.)



Lowering the other bands does NOT raise the deep bass, it just makes it seem more in relation to the other bands that were lowered. I believe that's what you meant, right Televator?

To the OP, iit's guitar riffs, not "rifts".
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Mar 11, 2007 at 4:12 PM Post #6 of 18
@ appar111
[tongue in cheek] hmmm, this is something quantum physics proved wrong
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As you raise volume after lowering all bands to listen at the same average level as before, you will notice that deep-bass has effectively been raised, eventhough you have only lowered other frequencies and never touched the lower frequencies (alone)...

Is this just perception as you seem to indicate by italicizing seem? Yes and no. Of course it is perception as it is only relatively more because you have less of the rest... but as the whole thing only is about perceived loudness, there is no difference between actually raising the lower frequencies (which is impossible to do on those DAP's hence the need for an alternative) and lowering everything else, then raising volume to the same average loudness. Your ears do not hear the difference between raising one or lowering the others if the spl is the same afterwards. [/tongue in cheek]
 
Mar 11, 2007 at 5:37 PM Post #8 of 18
Quote:

Originally Posted by Stunna7516 /img/forum/go_quote.gif
why dont they include multi band custom eqs in every dap? seems like such an easy thing to do.


So says us the non-programmers.

To the OP, if you know the EP630s have recessed mids, why would you try to increase the bass and treble? Wouldn't that apparently make the mids more recessed?
 
Mar 11, 2007 at 5:53 PM Post #9 of 18
Quote:

Originally Posted by radioactive28 /img/forum/go_quote.gif
So says us the non-programmers.

To the OP, if you know the EP630s have recessed mids, why would you try to increase the bass and treble? Wouldn't that apparently make the mids more recessed?



Not an audio-tech by any means...Decided to check EQ settings on Xion for 'Rock' and saw V shaped EQ. Elevated treble/bass, recessed mids.

Guess I was wrong to follow it?
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Mar 11, 2007 at 6:37 PM Post #10 of 18
My thoughts...

It all depends on the "source" of your mudiness. If the mud is coming from frequency recession then the EQ can be used to boost those attenuated frequencies. BUT the EQ will only work if it has frequency bands centered at the attenuated frequencies. If for example your setup is recessing/boosting 3000Hz, and you boost/cut 4000Hz to try and compensate, you are ALSO boosting frequencies that are not truly recessed, and therfore introducing artifacts that can severely color the sound.

Most inexpensive graphic EQs are not very precise at all. Slopes can vary greatly. So, your 200 Hz EQ slider will most likely also boost 100 and 400 Hz by a certain amount.

Don't for a second think the labeled frequencies on your EQ are correct. Most inexpensive graphic EQ circuits are off by a little. If you try and boost/cut "by the numbers", to give a Grado-like sound (75Hz boost and 3200 Hz boost) for example)... the numbers could mis-lead you.

It again, depends on the "source" of your mudiness. An EQ can NOT alter time domain artifacts, and mudiness introduced from time delay / transient flaws in your setup. Any mudiness that is introduced from alternate harmonics or delayed resonance characteristics will always be there, regardless of your EQ settings.

Now.. if you can narrow down any resonance that is being triggered by a particular fundamental frequency, you CAN use an EQ to attenuate that fundamental frequency to the point where it considerably redudes the offending resonance. But you have to be carefull not to create a frequency recession with your EQ at the same time.

I hope this helped... EQ-ing IMHO is the least understood tool/element in system setup. I've seen it abused and used incorrectly both in car audio as well as headphone setups.

Good Luck!!
Garrett
 
Mar 11, 2007 at 6:41 PM Post #11 of 18
Quote:

Originally Posted by Televator /img/forum/go_quote.gif
For example with Sony minidiscs, the lowest band only reaches to 100Hz


Totally false. Where did you get this (mis)information?
 
Mar 12, 2007 at 7:31 AM Post #12 of 18
Quote:

Originally Posted by Beagle /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Totally false. Where did you get this (mis)information?


It wasn't 'false' (please do backup your strong remarks with facts... it is easy to say: "That is a lie, now prove me wrong") but I do admit it was a bit generalizing. It actually needed to say: "probably with all Sony HiMDs, but certainly with the first generation"

This was tried and tested by greenmachine a respected member of minidisc community forums and microphone builder/seller

Now for the proof that it is false?
 
Mar 12, 2007 at 5:44 PM Post #15 of 18
Quote:

Originally Posted by _M2 /img/forum/go_quote.gif
on my muvo, i use a W sound curve. .. with a 5 band eq.


the muvo IMHO has one of the better graphic EQs I have used in a portable/MP3/flash based player.
 

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