[Spawn300Z]

I’m

I agree, and that has been my general experience. Except that with the AIC + Su’s I’ve experienced the most notable performance step up and sonic revelation from any gear I’ve demo-ed in recent memory. It was a genuinely such a substantial upgrade and increase in music enjoyment for me (of course, there is that fun and pride of ownership in such gear that is definitely in the background as you well observe!)

i agree also. But recently I picked up the Playback Designs MPD-8. I again noticed a big step up from my TT2. These units synergis so beautifully.

 

[number1sixerfan]

I’m in agreement with the others, it’s not a 5% jump, it’s a large increase in performance from other non summit-fi amps.

I agree here. The AIC10 is a clear step above mid-summit fi gear. I would disagree with others that it's a tier or leap above the CFA3 from a pure technical standpoint (again thickness in timbre is the one area it has more of a small increase factor over it purely performance wise), rather that the tone/lushness + its own technical abilities is what drives the satisfaction for a lot of ppl over it. This to me seems especially true after my audition with the Ray Samuels B-21 Raider, which is also transparent, yet without any of the edginess or brightness that the CFA3 somewhat naturally has. The AIC is definitely colored, and in a way that you could argue is less transparent than some other, equally performing gear--yet extremely enjoyable (I'm in the it's extremely enjoyable camp).

That said, the CFA3, quirks and all are an anomaly here (price wise) and I do totally agree it is actually quite a step above many other popular TOTL amps discussed in this forum. I just think tonal preference (which I'm also in favor of the AIC10) is a pretty important factor rather than just sheer technical superiority.

 

[Swagsupply]

I agree here. The AIC10 is a clear step above mid-summit fi gear. I would disagree with others that it's a tier or leap above the CFA3 from a pure technical standpoint (again thickness in timbre is the one area it has more of a small increase factor over it purely performance wise), rather that the tone/lushness + its own technical abilities is what drives the satisfaction for a lot of ppl over it. This to me seems especially true after my audition with the Ray Samuels B-21 Raider, which is also transparent, yet without any of the edginess or brightness that the CFA3 somewhat naturally has. The AIC is definitely colored, and in a way that you could argue is less transparent than some other, equally performing gear--yet extremely enjoyable (I'm in the it's extremely enjoyable camp).

That said, the CFA3, quirks and all are an anomaly here (price wise) and I do totally agree it is actually quite a step above many other popular TOTL amps discussed in this forum. I just think tonal preference (which I'm also in favor of the AIC10) is a pretty important factor rather than just sheer technical superiority.

How much of an improvement would you say it is over Envy?

 

[number1sixerfan]

How much of an improvement would you say it is over Envy?

Unfortunately, I've only heard the Envy for a short period of time, with what I believe were stock tubes so I can't really comment there. I have however, owned and have done quite a bit of shootouts with the WA33, my speaker amps-Hegel H120 and Primaluna EVO 400 integrated (which btw also hold their own with headphones against anything but in honesty would rather not use a speaker amp, EC Studio B and CFA3, as well as had the AIC and B-21 in house for demo.

I think compared individually, the AIC is probably a bit better than the EC Studio B, CFA3 solo and WA33 standard, which should be in a similar range to the Envy but gain I can't say for sure. By how much would be subjective, but I would take the AIC over each of these. I just don't think it comes down to solely outperforming them technically, rather some combination of outperforming them in some areas while preferred color of sound being a difference makers in others.

 

[goldwerger]

This to me seems especially true after my audition with the Ray Samuels B-21 Raider, which is also transparent, yet without any of the edginess or brightness that the CFA3 somewhat naturally has. The AIC is definitely colored, and in a way that you could argue is less transparent than some other, equally performing gear--yet extremely enjoyable (I'm in the it's extremely enjoyable camp).

I've had the RSA B-21 Raider at home for 4 months side-by-side with my AIC-10.

They are distinctly unique in their presentations. And none takes away from the other in this regard.

However, using my Sus OG, the AIC-10 is far superior to the B-21 to my ears both in terms of my presentation preference, as well as my perceived technicalities. It's a clear step up.

It's also MUCH more expensive. The B-21 includes two amps in one product. If you ascribe, say, $3-7k to its dynamic amp, it can't possibly be a fair comparison.

I actually think the B-21 is much closer in its presentation charactersitics to the CFA-3 (of which you and I both shared ownership). You had them at the same time though, for me it's purely memory based. But based of fthat, they offer a rather similar type of performance and presentation. The B-21 edged it for me over the CFA3 as I commented before elsewhere, but you have the benfit of also comparing to the CFA3 + tube preamp, which I learned from you is an improvement. So on that I have to rely on you..

All of this - purely subjective to my ears, my perceptions, my biases. Clealry, there is nothing determistic here that applies to all

 

[number1sixerfan]

I've had the RSA B-21 Raider at home for 4 months side-by-side with my AIC-10.

They are distinctly unique in their presentations. And none takes away from the other in this regard.

However, using my Sus OG, the AIC-10 is far superior to the B-21 to my ears both in terms of my presentation preference, as well as my perceived technicalities. It's a clear step up.

It's also MUCH more expensive. The B-21 includes two amps in one product. If you ascribe, say, $3-7k to its dynamic amp, it can't possibly be a fair comparison.

I actually think the B-21 is much closer in its presentation charactersitics to the CFA-3 (of which you and I both shared ownership). You had them at the same time though, for me it's purely memory based. But based of fthat, they offer a rather similar type of performance and presentation. The B-21 edged it for me over the CFA3 as I commented before elsewhere, but you have the benfit of also comparing to the CFA3 + tube preamp, which I learned from you is an improvement. So on that I have to rely on you..

All of this - purely subjective to my ears, my perceptions, my biases. Clealry, there is nothing determistic here that applies to all

I think this is where how we describe things and our own subjective preferences play a key role in people seeming further aligned than not. Like you, I agree that the CFA3 and B-21 have very similar presentations and strengths. For me, the CFA3 when I had it with the AIC was just pretty close overall (which I would then have to assume the B-21 is as well, which I think is a tad more complete overall than it). The things that stand out to me technically for TOTL amps are usually: resolution, spacing, imaging, timbre and very solid/authoritative bass performance. In those categories, each excelled similarly--except again timbre, which I think the AIC has an actual performance advantage. In those other categories, I would not be able to give you a very detailed breakdown of how either of these are better--very similarly to my impressions on the CFA3 and B-21. Once you get to a certain level of TOTL performance, at least for me, it more so comes down to flavor rather than ultimate dominance. But I think the combination of its timbre + its very engaging and enjoyable tone is what would put it over the top for me. Right now, it, the Red October and the B-21 would be top of my absolute list to buy if I really needed an amp.

But that's just my opinion and I'd love to understand other examples of areas the AIC outperformed these other absolute TOTL amps for you or any others.

 

[goldwerger]

Right now, it, the Red October and the B-21 would be top of my absolute list to buy if I really needed an amp.

The Red October remains a bit of a bucket list amp for me. I'm always blown away when I demo it. Alas, I don't have space for it (and that's before talking about the new XL I'm looking forward to demo-ing it at SoCal!). I always leave any demo of it feeling like I want to stay and listen some more..

If I were to buy a new amp today without having anything at all in my stack starting fresh, I'd consider the B-21 to be one of the best way to get out of the gate with an incredibly versatile and high performing amp that could play anything. It's such an enticing value proposition. Two wonderful amp with super connectivity.

I'd love to understand other examples of areas the AIC outperformed these other absolute TOTL amps for you

With the AIC, the Susvara just sounds so incredibly natural. Timbre is "organic" for lack of better adjective. It just sounds right.

There is a magical combination for me between the AIC's massively powerful attack and its satisfying decay. I suspect the hybrid design of its solid-state class A output coupled with its tube gain stage is the part that creates this magic for me. It results in what I perceive to be textured and weighty notes. Other amps (that, on their own, sound spectacular) feel lean and sterile in direct comparison because they miss that element for me. I felt that in comparison to the 465, for example. Of course, one doesn't listen to things in A/B, and such an amp on its own sounds fantastic and lacks for nothing. But when I switched to the AIC, I got that immediate sense of extra weight. The B-21 and CFA3 also have a very fast decay, which many will prefer as it makes things sound "tight"; but for me it loses some of that organic feel (which, perhaps, is why I generally prefer tube amps to solid state ones; though it's an overly crude statement, given eveyrthing I described above can be found in one tube amp or another).

In addition, I have never heard any amp produce such a substantial bass from the Susvara as the AIC does (one tentative exception, which is impossible for me to direclty compare, is the Audio-Technica HPA-KG NARU amp; that one btw is over $100k).

Last, I love the spacial presentation of the AIC+Sus. It's neither the biggest nor smallest soundstage, but it feels very natural to me. It makes me not think about it and just be present with the music. The music is neither in my head, nor is it disjointed and artifically spaced out, just coherent with very natural imaging and a sense of space.

Hope this gives some color to my taste and preferences.

 

[number1sixerfan]

The Red October remains a bit of a bucket list amp for me. I'm always blown away when I demo it. Alas, I don't have space for it (and that's before talking about the new XL I'm looking forward to demo-ing it at SoCal!). I always leave any demo of it feeling like I want to stay and listen some more..

If I were to buy a new amp today without having anything at all in my stack starting fresh, I'd consider the B-21 to be one of the best way to get out of the gate with an incredibly versatile and high performing amp that could play anything. It's such an enticing value proposition. Two wonderful amp with super connectivity.



With the AIC, the Susvara just sounds so incredibly natural. Timbre is "organic" for lack of better adjective. It just sounds right.

There is a magical combination for me between the AIC's massively powerful attack and its satisfying decay. I suspect the hybrid design of its solid-state class A output coupled with its tube gain stage is the part that creates this magic for me. It results in what I perceive to be textured and weighty notes. Other amps (that, on their own, sound spectacular) feel lean and sterile in direct comparison because they miss that element for me. I felt that in comparison to the 465, for example. Of course, one doesn't listen to things in A/B, and such an amp on its own sounds fantastic and lacks for nothing. But when I switched to the AIC, I got that immediate sense of extra weight. The B-21 and CFA3 also have a very fast decay, which many will prefer as it makes things sound "tight"; but for me it loses some of that organic feel (which, perhaps, is why I generally prefer tube amps to solid state ones; though it's an overly crude statement, given eveyrthing I described above can be found in one tube amp or another).

In addition, I have never heard any amp produce such a substantial bass from the Susvara as the AIC does (one tentative exception, which is impossible for me to direclty compare, is the Audio-Technica HPA-KG NARU amp; that one btw is over $100k).

Last, I love the spacial presentation of the AIC+Sus. It's neither the biggest nor smallest soundstage, but it feels very natural to me. It makes me not think about it and just be present with the music. The music is neither in my head, nor is it disjointed and artifically spaced out, just coherent with very natural imaging and a sense of space.

Hope this gives some color to my taste and preferences.

This makes a lot of sense to me, and resonates very much. Timbre for me was the one area it absolutely stood out as better and unique across most other amps--even the best of the best. And definitely over the CFA3 and the B-21. In this regard it reminds me of my T2 for stats. And lot of what you're describing comes down to that and sounds very similar to how I experienced it. This is what I meant earlier about at this level communication and some advantages meaning more to some than others. I can see how it may seem "far better" to some more so than others, and I think that's justified--especially when explained in detail like the above, so thank you!

Again it's the same thing I loved about the AIC so no disagreement from me at all lol. Just a difference based on my own POV on how much better it is over the others mentioned (neither perspective right or wrong at all).

And I'm really frustrated that I've encountered the Red October at any meet or anywhere.. I'm pretty sure I'd really enjoy it based on everything I've read. And the Mass Kobo was really great, but to your point, I don't speak on it much because being able to home demo and/or A/B is really needed.. I just could tell that it was in that same upper tier based off a 20min~ listen.

 

[goldwerger]

I'm really frustrated that I've encountered the Red October at any meet or anywhere.. I'm pretty sure I'd really enjoy it based on everything I've read.

come to SoCal!

 

[number1sixerfan]

come to SoCal!

Work trip the same timing and can't get to SoCal because of it smh. Next time though!!

 

[goldwerger]

Work trip the same timing and can't get to SoCal because of it smh. Next time though!!

sorry buddy

 

[paradoxper]

it is about 6 times the cost so I hope it is better...I am speaking of the cost of the dukei version I own..lets be honest the differences at the high end are small and subjective...I prefer my envy to my CFA3 but both are fantastic

I've had all of these amps. None of them cost over 1K in BOM so you are paying a premium for the company to make a living.
The most expensive things any of these amplifiers can use are custom transformers. So keep it in mind, try to understand the context better.

All great amps within use cases, I'd take the CFA3 hybrid and call it a day.

Instead I've stuck with CFA3 and a tube pre with a quad of TM 300B.

You can do the math if desired. I can't really measure my enjoyment these wonderful amps provide.

 

[walterboss]

How much of an improvement would you say it is over Envy?

Significant, even with we300b and brimar nos tubes in envy

 

[jlbrach]

like everything else it is up to the individual...a 20k amp is gonna be better than a 100 dollar map no way around it but a 20k amp isnt always better than a 10k amp it is certainly subjective though I dont argue with those who believe it is in either direction..you think these are difficult things to discern?..go on the ASR website and mention the AIC-10 amp and you will be bombarded with people mocking you and telling you there topping amp measures better and you are a moron to pay what you do etc..

 

[Frankie D]

like everything else it is up to the individual...a 20k amp is gonna be better than a 100 dollar map no way around it but a 20k amp isnt always better than a 10k amp it is certainly subjective though I dont argue with those who believe it is in either direction..you think these are difficult things to discern?..go on the ASR website and mention the AIC-10 amp and you will be bombarded with people mocking you and telling you there topping amp measures better and you are a moron to pay what you do etc..

Agreed. I especially agree that an expensive amp is not necessarily better than an amp of quality at a lesser price point. As for the ASR website, if they cannot hear the difference between the AIC and a Topping, they get to save allot of $. I will leave it at that.