[feifan]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mudshark /img/forum/go_quote.gif Okay, so I am listening to Patricia Barber’s “Nightclub” MFSL SACD with the following system I cobbled together from gear that was in different rooms around the house: Esoteric DV-60 > Harmonic Technology Pro-Silway Mk.III > Musical Fidelity X-Can v2 > Senn HD800. The Esoteric and the MF are both plugged into a PS Audio Quintessence Power Center that is plugged into a double-cryo'ed Oyaide R1 AC receptacle. The power cord on the Esoteric is the Shunyata Research Powersnakes' Python. There is not even a hint of glare on the sweet and grain-free treble. The bass is deep and melodic and sounds correct in the mix. The sound stage is gloriously holographic. Patty’s piano is so musical you would think she was in the room. Her voice sounds just right (I have seen her live in concert and have heard her recordings on many systems including ones costing many multiples of what I am currently using). If there is a potential weak link in this test system, it is the MF X-Can v2. It still has the stock tubes, which have several years of occasional use on them. One complaint I have heard about the X-Can v2 with stock tubes is that it is “bright.” Guess what, though: no brightness problem at all with the HD800’s in circuit! In short, I think the HD800’s tonal balance is spectacular, and I believe the limits of what these cans can do are defined by one’s upstream components.

Effective test methods and procedures + sound conclusions = excellent review. I'm referring here to the process and not the actual results. The limits of the study are clear, and there is no attempt to generalize beyond the scope of the study.

 

[RedBull]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mudshark /img/forum/go_quote.gif In your experience, what headphones can overcome a bright source or amp and still sound good in spite of bright electronics (and/or a bright recording) ... but also manage to sound good with quality electronics and recordings? Based on the above quote from your review, I think we are somewhat in agreement that the Senn HD800's are just the messenger. Where we differ, apparently, is that you choose to shoot the messenger for hot treble whereas I prefer to shoot the message (i.e., thin/bright recordings, source components, and amps).

Shoot? is there anyone dead?

This is getting personal.

Why don't you have your own review thread with your own gear and your own perception? Why can't Skylab has his personal opinion?

 

[Skylab]

Quote:

Originally Posted by pzm9pzm9 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Skylab, 1. a great review. thanks 2. (purely subjetive) for how much would you grab this pair? (what do you think the adequate value should be) or would you simply not grab this at all?

Thanks! I actually stated about 10 pages or so ago (lol) that I would gladly pay $700 for them, and might go up to $900.

Quote:

Originally Posted by holland /img/forum/go_quote.gif Hi Skylab, I expect SS NFB amps to respond quite differently than tubes, particularly OTL. Note the impedance up, and the "trend" relative from HD650->HD600->HD800. Higher damping factor with respect to frequency. OTL amps tend to have high output impedance and NFB amps, low, particularly SS which will likely be below 1 ohm. Tube NFB amps will likely be very light NFB and still have higher output impedance. One other interesting thing to gauge, reducing the damping factor by increasing the output impedance of the amp (120 ohm adapter, etc.). This is probably not your interest though, but thought I would ask if you've noticed anything trending between your amps (if you know all the tech specs of them), subtle as they may be.

Actually I did attempt to cover that topic in my review. But I liked the HD800 just as much through the CSP-2, which has a 60 ohm output impedance as via the C-2-C, which surely has a much lower output impedance (not sure what, though).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mudshark /img/forum/go_quote.gif Okay, so I am listening to Patricia Barber’s “Nightclub” MFSL SACD with the following system I cobbled together from gear that was in different rooms around the house: Esoteric DV-60 > Harmonic Technology Pro-Silway Mk.III > Musical Fidelity X-Can v2 > Senn HD800. The Esoteric and the MF are both plugged into a PS Audio Quintessence Power Center that is plugged into a double-cryo'ed Oyaide R1 AC receptacle. The power cord on the Esoteric is the Shunyata Research Powersnakes' Python. There is not even a hint of glare on the sweet and grain-free treble. The bass is deep and melodic and sounds correct in the mix. The sound stage is gloriously holographic. Patty’s piano is so musical you would think she was in the room. Her voice sounds just right (I have seen her live in concert and have heard her recordings on many systems including ones costing many multiples of what I am currently using). If there is a potential weak link in this test system, it is the MF X-Can v2. It still has the stock tubes, which have several years of occasional use on them. One complaint I have heard about the X-Can v2 with stock tubes is that it is “bright.” Guess what, though: no brightness problem at all with the HD800’s in circuit! In short, I think the HD800’s tonal balance is spectacular, and I believe the limits of what these cans can do are defined by one’s upstream components.

Thanks for your thoughts. I think we all get that this is YOUR opinion.

Quote:

Originally Posted by feifan /img/forum/go_quote.gif Effective test methods and procedures + sound conclusions = excellent review. I'm referring here to the process and not the actual results. The limits of the study are clear, and there is no attempt to generalize beyond the scope of the study.

Feifan I'm sorry, I cannot let this go. There is no test method, and no procedure here. He listened to his own gear, and came up with his own conclusion, but your glorifying it in this way is absurd. All he did was listen to the headphones and say how they sounded, on his gear. Fine, that's great, and I welcome his opinion. But in his case there has been no attempt to actually control any variable, which I went through great lengths to do. So his "conclusion" that it is the upstream components is that make the impact is based on a sample of ONE. I fail to see how ANY conclusion can be drawn from that, except that it sounded good to him on his own gear. That is great - for him.

And how in the WORLD is the below not "generalizing beyond the scope of the study":

Quote:

In short, I think the HD800’s tonal balance is spectacular, and I believe the limits of what these cans can do are defined by one’s upstream components.

He makes that conclusion based on a sample of ONE. And you praise him, because he agrees with you. I make my comments based on a sample of MANY, and you criticize me for a half a page for that. I dunno, what am I missing?

Oh yeah - that you like his conclusion, and not mine.

 

[RedBull]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skylab /img/forum/go_quote.gif He makes that conclusion based on a sample of ONE. And you praise him, because he agrees with you. I make my comments based on a sample of MANY, and you criticize me for a half a page for that. I dunno, what am I missing? Oh yeah - that you like his conclusion, and not mine.

I know what you're missing, ... you're not the same preference as feifan ...

 

[feifan]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skylab /img/forum/go_quote.gif Feifan I'm sorry, I cannot let this go.

Hey, Skylab. No need for apologies. Go for it! You've created an exhilarating thread, and I'm thoroughly enjoying the discussion. This is what makes Head-fi so much fun. My guess is that the lively give and take is providing Head-fiers with a lot of useful information to weigh the HD800 for possible purchase or return. I not only admire your depth of knowledge and your selfless willingness to share it, but also your skill in effortlessly expressing complex ideas. I also admire your willingness to debate key issues. But most of all, I admire your ability to refrain from turning arguments into personal attacks. In the heat of exchanges, you always manage to remain a gentleman. Without this kind of open debate, the Head-fi forum would be less. I guess it's sort of like the prosecution and defense in a trial -- we need both to arrive at the closest possible approximation to truth. Thanks again for your marvelous review and this exciting discussion!

 

[dallan]

Quote:

Originally Posted by feifan /img/forum/go_quote.gif If I'm reading this statement correctly, robm321 has never heard the HD800. If I'm mistaken, please let me know.

I have to admit, there have been many posts that I would have commented on but I seem to have to read them in bunches when I have time, thus my comments would have been dated.
I did find this one(that you commented on) particularly amusing after the negativity about the HD800s from robm321 in many of his posts and then him stating that he was looking forward to hearing for himself soon. Kinda took me by surprise.

 

[dallan]

Originally Posted by sling5s
"I really do foresee a HD850 coming next year with more bass and more smoothed out and refined treble."



There are those who are clamoring for it so it may happen but if it does i will stay with the HD800s and forgo the veil. The clarity is just wonderful, if i want heavy sweet bass i can always don the DX1000s or go put on the 650s for a while(although the 650s have become unfulfilling). I do feel that these(800s) are neutral and a reference phone as opposed to either of those though.

 

[thathertz]

I've read most of Skylab's reviews and while I don't always agree with him,
I always respect him for his impeccable approach to the art of 'the review'.

To be honest, I really admire him for giving an honest review amid the
hysteria present on head-fi regarding these phones.

Any headphones costing this much are bound to polarize opinions.
Headphones with this price tag produced by Sennheiser, considering the
pedigree, perhaps had to do too may things for too many people.

After reading 100's of posts from the original 'appreciation' thread I had
decided that I was going to hang on to my phones for the forseeable
future but that's just down to how I like my music served up.

I know this much from what I've read: if I could afford another set of
headphones in this price range I would buy a pair of HD800's because
for me, having the Ed 9's and HD800's would be the end of the road
for a good few years.

In time I think this could be seen as a very important thread. I've said
this before but it will be a few months before we get a true picture
on the HD800's.

Thanks to Skylab for the honest review.

 

[PhilS]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skylab /img/forum/go_quote.gif FAR, FAR more productive would be for HD800 owners to simply list their own gear, and describe what THEY hear. This might actually HELP other headphone readers. Re-treading the question of whether MY FINDINGS might possibly be gear related, in spite of my FAR MORE RIGOROUS attempts to eliminate this as a variable than any of the people who are posting that it's an issue are really not at all productive.

This is worth repeating, IMO.

Skylab, thanks for your thoughtful review. As usual, it is very helpful to those of us considering this phone.

It's unfortunate that this thread has been diverted with so much discussion intended to suggest why your opinion or perceptions are not correct. This type of thing is becoming more prevalent on Head-Fi, IMO, and extracting useful information about the HD-800 and other products is becoming more and more difficut as more and more threads consists of 20% useful opinions and valuable disucssions, and 80% argument for the sake of argument. It's very frustrating finding an interesting thread topic, and then having to wade through page after page of people spitting at each other.

 

[Beagle]

Quote:

Originally Posted by holland /img/forum/go_quote.gif

Wow. Look at that upper-bass hump. Unreal.

 

[Skylab]

Forgive the question, but you understand that is a graph of impedance, not frequency response, yes?

 

[Beagle]

Yes, I was just imagining it being a graph of frequency response and what it might sound like with hip-hop.

 

[Skylab]

LOL! Yep, if that were an actual FR graph, it would be quite the bass monster!

 

[Snacks]

Skylab's review should be applauded; it is and very much appreciated! Not many will, or have taken the time to do what he has done for this community! I do not agree with every single detail, but I respect his opinion(s).

The HD 800 is a complex headphone. The outpouring of varying opinions (not to include those who haven't heard the HD 800) in this thread and others is evidence of that fact. Some will get it, others won't.

My 30 day return policy from TTVJ is up, I'm satisfied with them, I'm keeping them...it's that simple. If you have $1400.00 and 30 days it's a win/win situation. However, try and buy them from HeadRoom/TTVJ or other Head-fi supporters or sponsors.

I have nothing else to add, but I will continue reading this interesting debate, because Feifan, Mudshark, Skylab, Holland (even though those charts are hard on the eyes), Currawong (24 blogs and counting), IPod PJ, Rangen, Gu Sensei (Leben 300X; I want it!), various others, and last but not least, the mods.

It's a fun time for the headphone world!

Have a safe and happy 4th of July!

-Peace

 

[rangen]

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhilS /img/forum/go_quote.gif TIt's unfortunate that this thread has been diverted with so much discussion intended to suggest why your opinion or perceptions are not correct.

Agreed. Ironically, I think this happens precisely because of the strongest virtue of Skylab's review: it's a professional-quality review, that could appear proudly in any audio magazine, and that would shame much of what appears in many of them. Level-matching, multiple sources and amplifiers, and an attention to detail that puts it way beyond the usual review.

That makes it look authoritative, and people respond defensively to things that smack of authority. "But if I like the HD800, does that mean I'm wrong? That I don't have golden ears, and I'm little different from the people I see every day, who are perfectly content with their iPod earbuds? That I'm not an audiophile? This is not to be borne. I must attack the problem at the source! Where's that "Submit Reply" button?"

And, to the degree possible, I think Skylab's review is authoritative. For Skylab's ears. So my suggestion would be to get defensive only if you happen to have Skylab's ears.