REVIEW: Comparison of 5 High End Digital Music Servers - Aurender N10, CAD CAT server, TotalDac d1-Server, Auralic Aries, Audiophile Vortex Box
Nov 22, 2017 at 11:30 AM Post #1,096 of 1,486
You'd think. As I would.

pj

Yes, me too which is why I tried the dCS Network Bridge first because there seemed to be greater logic in the approach of Ethernet isolation rather than USB cleaner. In fact, I only tried the tX-USBUltra at all because Romaz encouraged me to do so. Following my experience with the dCS NB, I had my doubts about the tX but had nothing to lose by giving it a go. I had brought the SE to Roy’s attention (I believe that he has bought one himself) and he highly commended the combination with the tX to me. Of course, he runs his tX with a REF10 master clock and his SR7 powersupply, but that’s Roy for you. :wink:

The designer of the Zenith SE asked me to let him know how I got on with the tX, which I did and expressed surprise myself at the result. He wasn’t so surprised at all himself so I asked him why they didn’t include something similar inside the SE and it is really a matter of cost and preference, as it always is with this stuff. You may find most people are just happy with the SE direct then there are folk like me who want a little more, then there are folk who prefer to run master clocks and all sorts of other ultimate solutions, so I could see his point. Nothing is perfect for everybody.
 
Nov 22, 2017 at 11:40 AM Post #1,097 of 1,486
Yes, me too which is why I tried the dCS Network Bridge first because there seemed to be greater logic in the approach of Ethernet isolation rather than USB cleaner. In fact, I only tried the tX-USBUltra at all because Romaz encouraged me to do so. Following my experience with the dCS NB, I had my doubts about the tX but had nothing to lose by giving it a go. I had brought the SE to Roy’s attention (I believe that he has bought one himself) and he highly commended the combination with the tX to me. Of course, he runs his tX with a REF10 master clock and his SR7 powersupply, but that’s Roy for you. :wink:

The designer of the Zenith SE asked me to let him know how I got on with the tX, which I did and expressed surprise myself at the result. He wasn’t so surprised at all himself so I asked him why they didn’t include something similar inside the SE and it is really a matter of cost and preference, as it always is with this stuff. You may find most people are just happy with the SE direct then there are folk like me who want a little more, then there are folk who prefer to run master clocks and all sorts of other ultimate solutions, so I could see his point. Nothing is perfect for everybody.

Perfectly explained. And articulated.

pj
(I encourage users to visit -re-visit- the AC Power supply/source. Running dedicated lines (in my experience) is not a panacea (although a solid and sensible directive -if run on the correct "phase" of the panel-) some believe. This is particular true for urbanite audiophiles. Previous success included AC regen. for source/digital and Symmetrical/Balanced (i.e. Equitech) for anlalog -or perhaps two?)
 
Nov 22, 2017 at 11:44 AM Post #1,098 of 1,486
Absolutely valid and important consideration. And potentially confusing. Before any further (or serious) money is invested, I'd strongly encourage one to consider a AC Power Re-generator or Symmetrical (i.e. Balanced) power supply for all 'source' and digital equipment, and separated from pre/power (analog) devices.

Not directed at you (greenmountain) at all, but the wise statement 'KISS' is something to bear in mind moving forward.

The concern I have with Streaming (Tidal, etc.) is the quality of the "signal" I'm actually receiving (yes, I'm sure it's bit/bit perfect and all that)
I would concern myself with that part of the equation (and all other variables involved) before the signal arrives at my doorstep; is nit as it should be ?

pj

I would agree with you pj. I run a balanced power supply for all the digital stuff but my power amp goes straight into the mains since it sounds better that way. I agree that it does make a positive improvement, although many may well disagree because we’re potentially getting into the ‘snake oil’ side of things here. I have always considered streaming to be clearly last in sound quality to files and CD, but it is surprisingly good for me now and a lot of it is about beating noise and interference.

One interesting point was that my balanced supply has two outputs, one for the power amp and another for everything else. I found that using balanced supply to my power amp compressed the dynamics, so I went straight into the wall which sounded a lot better. I have everything else running off of the supply intended for the amp and I plugged the tX-U into the spare balanced output so it effectively sits separate, isolated from everything else on its own supply which I found sounded better than plugging it into the same output as the rest of the digital items. It kind of made sense to me as well given the importance of getting the cleanest delivery possible into the BluDave.
 
Nov 22, 2017 at 12:10 PM Post #1,099 of 1,486
I would agree with you pj. I run a balanced power supply for all the digital stuff but my power amp goes straight into the mains since it sounds better that way. I agree that it does make a positive improvement, although many may well disagree because we’re potentially getting into the ‘snake oil’ side of things here. I have always considered streaming to be clearly last in sound quality to files and CD, but it is surprisingly good for me now and a lot of it is about beating noise and interference.

One interesting point was that my balanced supply has two outputs, one for the power amp and another for everything else. I found that using balanced supply to my power amp compressed the dynamics, so I went straight into the wall which sounded a lot better. I have everything else running off of the supply intended for the amp and I plugged the tX-U into the spare balanced output so it effectively sits separate, isolated from everything else on its own supply which I found sounded better than plugging it into the same output as the rest of the digital items. It kind of made sense to me as well given the importance of getting the cleanest delivery possible into the BluDave.

Malcyg: Excellent. I'm surprised at the dynamics restriction you experienced with a (high-powered?) Symmetrical PS -a typical (large capacity 1-1.5 Kva) transformer is known for considerably lower output impedance than any AC wall outlet could hope to have. With a drop in impedance, dynamics are often enhanced.

At this point (in the game/art), please consider a AC power regen. for ALL digital based gear, analog or other in a separate Symmetrical/Balanced unit.
What I've experienced is that the more equipment stuffed/plugged into a power 'supply', the greater potential for p/s modulation -impaired sound. Noticeably. Disappointingly. Clearly, all of the electrical 'hash' (to/from the gear itself ) modulates-distorts (overloads? -not electrically/amps) the devices own power supply.

If you have not (and if it remains on sale; $1,495. from $2,500 -Music Direct I believe), the PS Audio P-3 AC Regen. (only for sources/digital gear) would be a great unit to audition.

pj
 
Nov 22, 2017 at 12:27 PM Post #1,100 of 1,486
Malcyg: Excellent. I'm surprised at the dynamics restriction you experienced with a (high-powered?) Symmetrical PS -a typical (large capacity 1-1.5 Kva) transformer is known for considerably lower output impedance than any AC wall outlet could hope to have. With a drop in impedance, dynamics are often enhanced.

At this point (in the game/art), please consider a AC power regen. for ALL digital based gear, analog or other in a separate Symmetrical/Balanced unit.
What I've experienced is that the more equipment stuffed/plugged into a power 'supply', the greater potential for p/s modulation -impaired sound. Noticeably. Disappointingly. Clearly, all of the electrical 'hash' (to/from the gear itself ) modulates-distorts (overloads? -not electrically/amps) the devices own power supply.

If you have not (and if it remains on sale; $1,495. from $2,500 -Music Direct I believe), the PS Audio P-3 AC Regen. (only for sources/digital gear) would be a great unit to audition.

pj

Maybe, I don’t know. Part of the problem could be that my power amp draws up to 2kW, but there also seems to be differences of opinion on the matter regarding power amps as well, just to confuse matters - for example see quote below from VertexAQ website about their own balanced power supplies.

‘But it is also a considerable performance benefit to keep power hungry amps away from the supplies to your precious source components. It’s a mistake to pull the ‘demanded current’ for power amps through the balanced transformer that is also feeding the source components. This would ‘pulse’ the transformer, causing more waveform distortion and vibration that would then pollute your source components’.

Whatever the case, I’m certainly no expert on any of this, but I’m very happy with what I have which is the main thing.
 
Nov 22, 2017 at 12:29 PM Post #1,101 of 1,486
Malcyg: Excellent. I'm surprised at the dynamics restriction you experienced with a (high-powered?) Symmetrical PS -a typical (large capacity 1-1.5 Kva) transformer is known for considerably lower output impedance than any AC wall outlet could hope to have. With a drop in impedance, dynamics are often enhanced.

At this point (in the game/art), please consider a AC power regen. for ALL digital based gear, analog or other in a separate Symmetrical/Balanced unit.
What I've experienced is that the more equipment stuffed/plugged into a power 'supply', the greater potential for p/s modulation -impaired sound. Noticeably. Disappointingly. Clearly, all of the electrical 'hash' (to/from the gear itself ) modulates-distorts (overloads? -not electrically/amps) the devices own power supply.

If you have not (and if it remains on sale; $1,495. from $2,500 -Music Direct I believe), the PS Audio P-3 AC Regen. (only for sources/digital gear) would be a great unit to audition.

pj

Just to jump in on the power supply issue.

Torus ( which I used 16 amp version ) has large amount of power in reserve.

What I found using the power supply, with cheap cables the SQ improved and moved them closer to the performance of more expensive cables. The USB cable had the biggest improvement.
 
Nov 22, 2017 at 12:34 PM Post #1,102 of 1,486
Maybe, I don’t know. Part of the problem could be that my power amp draws up to 2kW, but there also seems to be differences of opinion on the matter regarding power amps as well, just to confuse matters - for example see quote below from VertexAQ website about their own balanced power supplies.

‘But it is also a considerable performance benefit to keep power hungry amps away from the supplies to your precious source components. It’s a mistake to pull the ‘demanded current’ for power amps through the balanced transformer that is also feeding the source components. This would ‘pulse’ the transformer, causing more waveform distortion and vibration that would then pollute your source components’.

Whatever the case, I’m certainly no expert on any of this, but I’m very happy with what I have which is the main thing.

You are correct on both counts:

1) Your (up to) 2-KW amplifier draw, sensibly to me, would be best served by direct-wall power -as you are.
2) The "modulation/pulsing" you referred to is what I was trying ? (lol) to suggest -too many items feeding off a/any power supply (without appropriate isolation) will result in less than stellar performance.

I do contend however, that a separate AC Re-gen. (PS P-3 or similar), when reasonably priced (used if necessary) would be a great addition to your existing premium component count. In this way (Regen/Balanced/Wall) will effectively isolate virtually all components from interacting with the other.

pj
 
Nov 22, 2017 at 12:40 PM Post #1,103 of 1,486
Just to jump in on the power supply issue.

Torus ( which I used 16 amp version ) has large amount of power in reserve.

What I found using the power supply, with cheap cables the SQ improved and moved them closer to the performance of more expensive cables. The USB cable had the biggest improvement.

Hi Clive: Just to be clear, the Torus is a straight-through isolation transformer; 120V remains referenced to ground -not the 60/60 as a Symmetrically Balanced design offers (i.e. Equi=tech)

Nevertheless, it's always good to hear that improvements were/are noted.

pj
 
Nov 22, 2017 at 12:46 PM Post #1,104 of 1,486
You are correct on both counts:

1) Your (up to) 2-KW amplifier draw, sensibly to me, would be best served by direct-wall power -as you are.
2) The "modulation/pulsing" you referred to is what I was trying ? (lol) to suggest -too many items feeding off a/any power supply (without appropriate isolation) will result in less than stellar performance.

I do contend however, that a separate AC Re-gen. (PS P-3 or similar), when reasonably priced (used if necessary) would be a great addition to your existing premium component count. In this way (Regen/Balanced/Wall) will effectively isolate virtually all components from interacting with the other.

pj

Thank you. That may explain why I prefer the tX-U powered in isolation from the other kit. We’re a bit off topic now though I think. Power supply and cables are not popular subject matter! :beyersmile:
 
Nov 22, 2017 at 12:56 PM Post #1,105 of 1,486
Thank you. That may explain why I prefer the tX-U powered in isolation from the other kit. We’re a bit off topic now though I think. Power supply and cables are not popular subject matter! :beyersmile:

Perhaps not: " ..Power supply and cables are not popular subject matter!", but my primary concern would be to discuss so as to extract the finest performance possible from our beloved music ! To think this can be accomplished without respecting cable and power is both naive and unwise.
(One would never, ever achieve what is possible if these great contributors are not addressed.)

pj
 
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Nov 22, 2017 at 1:21 PM Post #1,106 of 1,486
Just to jump in on the power supply issue.

Torus ( which I used 16 amp version ) has large amount of power in reserve.

What I found using the power supply, with cheap cables the SQ improved and moved them closer to the performance of more expensive cables. The USB cable had the biggest improvement.

RE: " ...The USB cable had the biggest improvement"

Clive: I had a similar profound improvement when I inserted the AQ 'Carbon' USB cable -from Pi 3B (running moode/MPD) to my Schitt Modi-2 Uber. Don't laugh (lol) -I started my streaming journey only a few months back. From what I'm hearing (amazing) I'll be moving forward rather quickly I suspect.
When I started (with some old/lying around USB cable, SQ was, well, bad -early MP-3ish. Once I connected the Carbon (AQ), it immediately went hi-rez -I was stunned. Prior, I was listening for about a week to the "old/original" streaming components/cables. I've also discovered that the choice of Ethernet cable is both easily identifiable and highly significant. (I simply purchased a no-name CAT-6 -not 6a and immediately noticed a most welcome sonic improvement cross the board; definition, midrange clarity, LF resolution/control. Quite the contrast to a 'supposed' CAT-7 I purchased through Amazon (both 25-feet) that sounded "glarly', grainy, basically washed-out. Moreover, the original (verified) CAT-5 I first used was clearly superior to a very old CAT-5a that I also used to compare. Go figure.
(When I do such comparisons, I monitor (and record) AC line conditions (connected to my computer and displayed visually) temp, humidity and other variables -including my mood. lol. BTW, mood doesn't matter; once I her/experience great sound -it positively elevates!)

pj
 
Nov 28, 2017 at 2:22 AM Post #1,107 of 1,486
Hi Clive: Just to be clear, the Torus is a straight-through isolation transformer; 120V remains referenced to ground -not the 60/60 as a Symmetrically Balanced design offers (i.e. Equi=tech)

Nevertheless, it's always good to hear that improvements were/are noted.

pj

Hi PJ,
The earth on the Torus is not conditioned as far as I am aware ( cleaned ) as the earth needs to connect the HIFI to the main house earth for protection.
Does the Equi=tech not do the same perhaps it is different if could you enlighten me..?
I am in the process of investigating a separate earth with a dedicated power supply (perhaps not legal in the UK ), although the separate power will perhaps make no difference for the power it may with a separate earth.
Do you or anyone how any information on what I wish to achieve...?
Apologies if a little off thread ( I may start a new thread ).
Regards C
 
Dec 17, 2017 at 1:13 PM Post #1,109 of 1,486
Hi Rajiv,

As you know, as you bridge your LAN ports, you gain the benefits of increased transparency both to the recording (which is a good thing) but also to your upstream components (which can be either a good thing or a bad thing depending on the quality of your upstream components). Once it became clear that the benefits of Ethernet isolation were somehow no longer there to the same extent with LAN bridging, then the usefulness of these Ethernet endpoints were now much less for me. At this point, why not go straight USB and incorporate some of this messy spaghetti chain internally, at least that's how I saw it. For sure, a single box solution has always been more attractive to me from a space and aesthetic standpoint but since SQ is the ultimate goal, well, I had to go with what my ears told me sounded better and thus far, each single box solution I have encountered including both the dCS Network Bridge and the Innuos Zenith SE have come with compromises.

With the dCS, you get this wonderful sense of detail resolution and timing precision but at the expense of dynamics. With the Zenith SE, it's the opposite. With what I have put together, I feel confident in saying that you get a greater measure of both and while I have moved away from your particular spaghetti situation, I still have a spaghetti situation, nonetheless, when you factor in my REF10 external master clock, a separate tX-USBultra and several Paul Hynes SR7s (I have now moved away from the Iso Regen).

Here's something that you and others may find interesting. In the past 24 hours, there have been new and surprising observations. As I transferred these servers yesterday evening to my near-field Voxativ setup in my home office for the very first time, I was surprised to find the Zenith SE preferable to the dCS NB by a large margin. For the past few weeks, with Blu2 and DAVE presently in my large listening room with the Martin Logans, I have been using my Hugo2 to directly drive my Voxativs (without a separate speaker amp) and while it does a very good job in this capacity, compared against DAVE, it had been sounding thinner. I was able to compensate for this to a large degree with a cable change and adjustment of my subwoofer but with the Zenith SE now feeding the Hugo2, I was shocked at how the Zenith SE transformed the Hugo2. This is now a different DAC and it feels like it's been turbocharged. The grip and authority of this DAC as it directly powers my speakers now seem Hulk-like. Transitions carry more weight and bass is so much stronger that I have had to literally turn down my subwoofer. Every track I've played has been several fold more enjoyable compared to when Hugo2 was being fed by my modified Mac Mini powered by my HDPlex and even without Blu Mk2 in this setup, I've found myself hardly missing it as I was simply in awe at what I was hearing. When I swapped the Zenith SE out for the dCS NB, there was this superior technical correctness on display akin to Yo-Yo Ma playing the cello but when compared against the Zenith SE, it was like Yo-Yo Ma was playing bored and uninspired. Lacking was the energy and emotion brought forth by the Zenith. Obviously, these servers are system dependent and so I don't feel that either of these servers/streamers is a lock in every system.

As I returned these servers back to my large listening room this morning where my Martin Logans and my Blu Mk2 and DAVE are presently kept, I was surprised by how much more dynamic the Zenith SE was sounding. In direct A/B testing, the dCS was now sounding flat as a pancake and this simply was not the case during the first 3 days I had these servers. I corresponded with the Zenith distributor this morning and to my surprise, I found out that the unit I received is virtually brand new and only had about 20 hours on it when I first received it. He told me this unit isn't even broken in yet. I know from my own experience that my SR7 didn't start to sound really good until it had at least 100 hours on it. Same with my REF10 Master Clock, my SOtM components and especially my SOtM cables (USB and CAT7). WIth the Zenith continuously playing back music all day, I gave it another good listen this evening and the Zenith has continued to improve with respect to dynamics, however, if I am to be honest, detail resolution is still a tad better with the dCS. At this point, however, if I had to choose one of these units for either my Voxativ room or my Martin Logan room, I would now go with the Zenith SE.

I decided to experiment some more. Since the Zenith SE has an "Ethernet out" port designed specifically for direct connection to a streamer, I decided to connect the dCS NB to this port. I suspect this is essentially a bridged LAN port (the first I have seen thus far in a mass produced Linux-based server) and sure enough, SQ from the dCS NB improved with regards to better clarity as if a thin veil had been removed. I decided to bridge the LAN ports on my custom server and connected the dCS NB to my custom server this way and this same SQ improvement was evident. Configured this way, the gap between the dCS and the Zenith SE has narrowed but given the choice, I think I would still go with the Zenith SE.

From there, I decided to connect my tX-USBultra to the Zenith SE (which is not yet possible to do with the dCS) and so now, this tX-USBultra (which is a USB regenerator) sits between the Zenith SE and my Blu Mk2. This tX-USBultra remains connected to my REF10 master clock and is powered by my SR7. All I can say is that this tX-USBultra transforms the Zenith SE in a very magical way. The wonderful dynamics are still all there but gone is the slight HF harshness I was detecting with the Zenith SE by itself. More importantly, the Zenith SE sounds even more dimensional in both depth and width and detail resolution is now actually better than the dCS NB. Of course, there is the option of pairing the dCS NB with an external master clock and I'm sure it will improve but guess what, with either of these scenarios, you will now find yourself with a spaghetti setup.

romaz: My zenith SE MKII should arrive next week. Given your reports it cant get here fast enough. II've searched bun been able to find the answer to this question regarding use of your zenith: Are you using Roon? Are you using both Roon Core and Roon Ready integrated in the Zenith? Or is the Roon Core on a separate device? Thanks
 

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