[tomek]

well, some of you might know me as one of the more skeptical users on this forum.

i've lately begun to read the literature out there on ABX testing and 'audio myths'. i've carefully tested different cables and have heard no difference. recently i tested my $2500 tube amp vs. my entry level Kenwood receiver and although the test was VERY short, I found no glaring differences.

another supposed audio 'myth' is that cd players sound different. I have a $2500 Teac VRDS-25X so reading this hurt me. I tested several players against mine and found no differences, but only today did I really do a more careful test. I created a cd with pink noise and sine waves of various frequencies and then I levelled my Teac vs. another one with a mod similiar to the zapfilter2.

to my surprise, the difference was huge and i noticed it instantly. this is a big deal for me because i was really beginning to believe that almost all audio was snake oil.

however, it's interesting to note that I actually preferred my player. while some may call it more 'digital', it seems more detailed and the images have a much clearer focus. sorry biggie. you'll see when you come to my house for the meet.

what this experience has given me though, is some hope that maybe not everything out there is imagined. strange enough though, my GF could not tell the difference at all while I was able to pick the player blind 20 out of 20 trials.

toodles!

 

[karmypolitics]

-

 

[Iron_Dreamer]

So until then you had been on the route back to a PCDP with stock phones, eh?

 

[NotoriousBIG_PJ]

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomek however, it's interesting to note that I actually preferred my player. while some may call it more 'digital', it seems more detailed and the images have a much clearer focus. sorry biggie. you'll see when you come to my house for the meet.

Heh, I've already heard the differences between our players and I don't need some special cd to hear it. If you prefer digititus, then I'm happy that you don't need to waste money on modding your player. I do however wonder why you are unhappy with your system if you do enjoy that type of sound.

I'm not really interested in hearing your player again to tell you the truth. I've found exactly what I was striving for within my own system. Its a natural sound free of sibilance with plenty of depth and I count myself lucky to have such an audio system that I can listen to every night a little bit before bed. Its really nice to be able to relax destress to some good tunes.

Biggie.

 

[kuma]

tomek,

Stop listening to gear and start listening to tunes!

Comparing gear by using pink noise is no way to evaluate a worth of any systems or gear.

So long as you are focused soly on 'sound' and not how the music is played back, you'll die broke and unhappy.

BTW, a $$# gear has nothing to do with how good a system sounds. It's up to how a system is put together as a whole.

 

[ooheadsoo]

I've kinda fallen into this category with power stuff too, but maybe not in the way you would think. I plugged my amp into the wall socket and plugged my computer's surge protector strip into my belkin pureav power strip. I thought it was my imagination but the fans on my amp and computer got really loud. I went to disconnect my fan on my amp, but that didn't go over too well with the internal thermal protection. When I plugged the fan back in, I rearranged the power situation so that my amp was back in the belkin and the computer strip was back in the wall. Ok, there was no question that the fan noise in my room was cut down by at least half. I don't feel any need to reduce fan noise on the amp any more. Maybe it's time for a oneac or furman.

 

[chadbang]

Quote:

Originally Posted by karmypolitics I think there was a test done a few years back. This audio magazine took a $500 amp, had an audio expert fool around with the EQ settings, and was able to get it to emulate a $2500 amp.

No what you need to do is find a $2,000 preamp that's a tad bright. A $3,000 tube amp that's a somewhat dark. A $1,500 cd player that's detailed, yet forgiving. And $500 cables that's are "on the warm-side". This way you'll never have to deal with anything as intrusive as an EQ to ruin your purist status!

Jesus, a few frequency notches here or there. Who cares how you achieve it? I still think the route to go is with budget equipment that melds just right. If you spent $16,000 on a turntable for sound, you should have your head examined. If you spend $16,000 to make your friends green with envy -- well, go for it!

 

[kuma]

Quote:

Originally Posted by chadbang No what you need to do is find a $2,000 preamp that's a tad Jesus, a few frequency notches here or there. Who cares how you achieve it? I still think the route to go is with budget equipment that melds just right.

You've got that right.
Nothing is wrong with EQing to fool the brain. ( it's all about voicing in hi-end gear anyways )

An economical gear inteligently put together always sounds better than ultra expensive gear melded together with no thoughts.

Conversely, a ultra high-end system that well thought out and installed can be out of this world. But those systems are very rare and out of reach for most mortals.

 

[tomek]

my bad. i didn't make myself clear. the pink noise was to make sure that the players had the same level of output. i didn't use pink noise to tell two players apart, i used cds that i was familiar with.

and it didn't take long to hear the difference. the mod sounded like the treble was taken down about 1-2 notches. smoother sounding perhaps, but less detailed. cymbals sounded muffled in comparison and the imaging was definitely softer.

both had their strengths, but for the price of the mod, i think maybe EQing would be cheaper and just as effective.

 

[Publius]

What exactly is the zipfilter2 mod anyway? It strongly seems to me from tomek's tests that its most audible effect is distorting the signal, because whatever audio improvements the mod produces get trumped IMHO by failing to perform the generally straightforward task of maintaining a flat frequency response. It's not described anywhere on headfi or google.

 

[markl]

The zapfilter is a very well-made, all-discrete analog output stage that replaces all the crummy cheap yucky op-amps found in a typical CDP. It will reduce distortion and provide a much cleaner and more powerful, authoritative output signal. Tomek claims the stock unit without the zapfilter sounds more "digital" but for whatever reason he likes it better. To each his own. Enough said.

 

[drminky]

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomek and it didn't take long to hear the difference. the mod sounded like the treble was taken down about 1-2 notches. smoother sounding perhaps, but less detailed. cymbals sounded muffled in comparison and the imaging was definitely softer.

..I think what we might have here is an aquired taste for the quirks of the cd format. What you describe about the modded treble is what most people are looking for - a less 'piercing', 'shrill' or 'fatiguing' treble, or a 'more natural' presentation. However, you seem to prefer this harsher/sharper treble. Its entirely understandable, after spending the last 20 years listening to music sound this way, it's what you expect to hear when you listen to music. Much like people who prefer the sound of vinyl when it has all the pops and crackles of surface dust all over the music.

I expect this is most likely to happen with relatively young people who've grown up with cd from a fairly early age. I grew up in the early/mid 80s with 2-track cassette tape and 7"/12" singles, and that's why I go for the analouge sound. Either way, its just a 'colouration' of the original sound that you've grown to love. Also, the type of music will make a big difference. It's hard to imagine a live classical lover prefering the harsh highs of CD, however a techno/hiphop fan well might prefer a bit of digital "colouration" to give the highhats a bit more 'punch'.

Am I right on this? If its the case I think its a good thing, if you have it..cause you'll be the hi-fi equivalent of a 'cheap night out!'

 

[breez]

It's not any more coloration than the rolled off highs coloration that some people prefer. And then the definition of natural, is it natural to be true to the recording or try to sound like live performance? A 'harsh' recording might sound truer to life with smoother playback, but what happens if you stumble upon a good recording? Will sound too smooth?

 

[philodox]

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomek however, it's interesting to note that I actually preferred my player. while some may call it more 'digital', it seems more detailed and the images have a much clearer focus. sorry biggie. you'll see when you come to my house for the meet.

If you remember, that is exactly what I said at the meet when I picked yours over Biggie's.

Now wait until you hear that CD player with my statmat!

Quote:

Originally Posted by chadbang I still think the route to go is with budget equipment that melds just right.

I agree with you here... however even with a nice budget setup you are still constantly looking for ways to tweak and improve it. Its part of our disease.

Quote:

Originally Posted by markl Tomek claims the stock unit without the zapfilter sounds more "digital" but for whatever reason he likes it better. To each his own. Enough said.

uh, actually he said "while some may call it more 'digital', it seems more detailed and the images have a much clearer focus" Quote:

Originally Posted by breez It's not any more coloration than the rolled off highs coloration that some people prefer. And then the definition of natural, is it natural to be true to the recording or try to sound like live performance? A 'harsh' recording might sound truer to life with smoother playback, but what happens if you stumble upon a good recording? Will sound too smooth?

Very well put.

 

[drminky]

Quote:

Originally Posted by breez It's not any more coloration than the rolled off highs coloration that some people prefer. And then the definition of natural, is it natural to be true to the recording or try to sound like live performance? A 'harsh' recording might sound truer to life with smoother playback, but what happens if you stumble upon a good recording? Will sound too smooth?

if you read my post again, this is exactly the point i was trying to make