research and story

[ZOLE]

Hello All,
CAUTION NEW MEMBER POSTING.......HAHAHA
Anyway I have been lurking for about 2.5 days (till my membership became active)
And although I am new to this forum I am not new to forums.......(administrator for an unreal tournament site)
But my research into IEM's here has left me a bit Wanting..
I have owned shure e3's for about 8 months.....I use them at least once a week in the 4 bands that I play in....Live application<<<<take note
I use the generic ends and have settled in nicely with a medium clear for left ear and a medium (soft)grey for the right.....The squishys that come with the package give me incredible response........ but herein lies my challenge.....I am a drummer that sings...and although I can hear everything crystal clear (with the squishies mind you) ,As soon as I sing, My headtone completely blocks out what is being reproduced through the in ears...???
SO I began to consider upgrading to possibly custom molds......or new Iems completely..
I spoke with sensphonics and futuresonics on the telephone .....and asked them the straight up (hard) questions....
Like for instance.........will the custom molds help my headtone dillema?
the answer I got was almost laughable.....(you need to have your sound engineer put your vocals in your monitor mix...What??)
and ...Sell me on spending 598 (futuresonics) touring model or 750 (sensaphonics) touring model(answer equally laughable.....All the big bands use the touring models).......and will custom ear molds on the em3(futuresonic) be the same as the touring models (with the built in custom molds)......(answer...the high priced ones are made better)
same question posed to sensaphonics.....and I am sorry to say that I have not found an answer....to any of the above questions......Even reading here it was hard to even get someone to admit that Futuresonics is even a major player.........
One thing that I did find interesting however......was that the Futuresonics brag about a larger single driver...(I think he said it is almost one half inch) as opposed to all others on the market which use hearing aid drivers!

SO here are a few of my questions
1) How can I eleviate the headtone when singing dilema?
2) Do you really get more value for your money by purchasing the "top dog" for any of the major playing companies......as opposed to getting the lower priced models with custom molds??(UE,Sensa,garwood,westone,Future,Shure,ETY, etc...)????
3)Does a half inch transducer really give better response than "hearing aid" drivers....even if there are 2 or 3 or even 4 driver models?
4) Can I get away with just getting the custom ear molds for my existing e3's
and call it an upgrade?

Thanks for reading.......I look forward to a healthy conversation !


Z

 

[Jasper994]

Ultimate Ears makes a UE5 ambient but I don't know if that's really the answer to your problem since it may allow to much else to leak in. The best recommendation I've seen so far is to add your vocal to the mix but as I'm not a performer I don't know the details of how well or poorly this would work... Good luck and welcome to Head-Fi.

 

[plainsong]

I think you'd always hear your inner body noises, including your voice, ...but... I don't know why you say "What??" to adding your vocals to the mix, because that would make all the difference in the world. You may hear your inner body noises, but it would seem like you'd hear yourself in the mix much more than the body noises. Isn't there any way to plug you into the sound board? Does anyone in the band bother to mix you guys before you perform?

I can't help but think a custom IEM would not only fit better, but hence be easier to use as well, but you've got to be able to hear yourself first.

 

[ZOLE]

Quote:

Originally Posted by plainsong I think you'd always hear your inner body noises, including your voice, ...but... I don't know why you say "What??" to adding your vocals to the mix, because that would make all the difference in the world. You may hear your inner body noises, but it would seem like you'd hear yourself in the mix much more than the body noises. Isn't there any way to plug you into the sound board? Does anyone in the band bother to mix you guys before you perform? I can't help but think a custom IEM would not only fit better, but hence be easier to use as well, but you've got to be able to hear yourself first.

HAHAHA I didnt mean What to adding my vocals to the mix I say What cause that is the answer I received....HAHAHA maybe a bit to heavy on the sarcasm
I been a musician for 29 years.....and I told the person that....To assume that I would not add my own vocals to my mix is why I said it was a laughable answer!!!
K sorry I did not clarify.....
maybe this will explain it better......
I ask "I have a custom mix in my head and can hear things fine........but when I sing my headtone drowns out my vocals in my mix even if I turn my vox up"
The person says "you should try putting your vocals in the mix"



Z

 

[plainsong]

Ahh, ok, I gotcha now. Hmmm, doesn't anyone with any real world vocal experience work at these places? There's a guy here at head-fi named Sugarfried. He works for Shure, but he has lots of real-world experience with many a band and many an IEM. As you're using Shures already, he might be able to talk to you better about what to expect from those bodily noises, and iif it improves any with an IEM.

It's something I've always wondered as a vocalist myself. I always wonder when I'm watching a band on tv, what it sounds like. Sure you hear yourself, but are _really_ hearing yourself and then some? No one talks about this stuff here.

Hey Lindrone - plug a mic into your stereo and plug your sensas in and belt some tunes - and tell us what it sounded like!

 

[ZOLE]

Anyone can obtain the Undesired result that I am referring to
Just stick your fingers in your ears and Talk......
Now I have found a way to circumvent the problem.....Wearing the buds that I mentioned in my first post.....But I have to sacrafice alot of low end and I have to wear the monitors not as far in as i would like them!!

But thank you for replying I appreciate the feedback


Z

 

[DanT]

Here an old tread I found that might have an answer
http://www6.head-fi.org/forums/showt...8&page=1&pp=25

Quote:

Originally Posted by d_wilson from Other tread Post #18 With an occluded (plugged) ear you need to get a deep seal (at or beyond second bend in the ear canal). Because of the stem of the ER-4 I don't think you can get a deep enough seal. You might get close with the foam eartips. THe only way to get a seal that deep is with custom earmolds, if you can get them made correctly. Don Wilson Etymotic Reseach [...From Post #23...][...] You don't need a deep seal to get good sound, just to sing along with without hearing your own voice. [...]

From what I understand you can solve your problem with correctly made earmolds (not sure if there is some special attention for singer earmolds), I guess you can e-mail Don Wilson or Etymotic and ask them for a more detail.

As a side note don't take it personaly but an obvious tread title will get more answer than a non-descriptive one. Something like Help Singing with canal phone

 

[John Reeves]

Hi,

I found that my custom moulds (UE's) do not give any where near the same amount of inner body noise as to sealed ear phones (ER4's) However they do not seal outside noise anywhere near as well.

John

 

[plainsong]

Yeah, but don't they isolate enough to protect your ears from damage?

 

[ZOLE]

K I changed the title........But to no avail
And I do thank you for your diggin to find that thread.....That Did help the first issue a bit.....I read the entire thread and went to ETY's site and researched there a bit....But I didnt find any testimonials from musicians using this product in a live enviornment.


Any feedback on the other questions?


Z

 

[ZOLE]

Sorry for the consecutive posts........But I am beggining to Understand Why I couldnt find much In the way of my unique IEM challenges.......
Most if not all of you use Iems for monitoring Ipods or stereos or PLD's
( I mean etys founder used to work as FOH engineer for Stevie Wonder and he uses FutureSonics for his live applications... http://futuresonics.com/html/clients.html )

But there are other questions in my original post that I would be interested in your feedback.


Z

 

[DanT]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZOLE [...]But I didnt find any testimonials from musicians using this product in a live enviornment.[...] Z

Disclaimer: None of this info is first hand knowledge, I never use custom ear monitor and with my etymotic my "headtone" is pretty loud when I talk and I'm no singer.

Your looking for testimonials. Ultimate ear has some that may relate to your situation but of course they put it there for self promotion and none talk specifcly about your issue
http://www.ultimateears.com/client_testimonials.htm

Here some example again those are posted on UE website for self-promotion so take it for what it's worth.
Quote:

Mindy and Sherry, I wanted to take a few moments and let you know how great it has been this past year using the UE-7 Pro I won during the 3rd quarter last year. At first it was very different and took a few practices to get used to playing with my new ears. They block out the noise so well I could barely hear my drums while playing! However, I quickly adapted and can honestly say that is has improved my singing and playing. The best part is that I no longer go home after a gig with ringing ears!! The past several months we added sequenced keyboards to our sound which was only possible thanks again to my Ultimate Ears. Not long ago the guitar player in my band decided to take the leap with his own pair and he loves them too! Now we have to work on our bass player J. Last week I sent my "Ears" in for repair and was equally pleased with your service. Overall, this has been one of the best experiences I have had. Thanks again for developing such a great product!! Alane Jacyszyn - Drummer, Lead Vocals-Ripley Sept. 2003 [...] I just used them for the first time at my gig tonight in Pasadena and I was blown away! The amount of wear and tear this is going to save on my voice is immense! Not just that, I hear tones in my voice that I would never hear in regular wedges. I'm able to adjust the tonal values of my notes by what I'm hearing thru these amazing little things! It is definitely going to made me a better singer.[...] Jerry March from Jungle Boogie

About the title only a Mod can change the title. So if you wanted change you have to pm a mod

 

[plainsong]

Did you read the quote from Don Wilson at etymotic earlier this thread, where he says a properly formed IEM eleviates this problem? Have you tried sending out a personal message to Sugarfried?

 

[ZOLE]

thank you about the title change........and Yes Plainsong I did read the ety stuff......and It kinda answered my 1 q?
there are 3 more q?s though......arent there???


Z

 

[lindrone]

1) How can I eleviate the headtone when singing dilema?

I tried what Plainsong suggested earlier, albeit this is a very, very rudimentary test. I'm not a musician, so I don't have any real proper equipment. I hooked up a microphone to my computer, had the audio being fed back through the ProPhonic 2X-S, played some music in the background and sang along with it.

I didn't find that hearing myself sing with the song is too overwhelming. Although I understand what you mean by "headtone". It's like when you plug up your ears and sing, the sound is significantly different from how you usually perceive your own voice.

I think it's more of a psychological effect though, I didn't find the headtone overwhelming enough to overcome the music, although I was screaming at the top of my lung. I think all musicians moving to IEM get used to having to deal with their own headtone after a while. I also don't believe that there's any IEM out there that will allow to alleviate this headtone effect if you really dislike it. There's a reason why that musicians still choose monitor speakers over IEM at times, although the obvious detriment is the placement of monitor speakers on stage as well as hearing protection.

Using an "ambient" IEM though (the ones that allow sound to come through) defeats the purpose, imho. It no longer protects your ear against the loud noise from the crowd, you now have to turn it up just as high as monitor speakers, and the sound source is even closer to your ears and causing even more potential damage. I'm not sure having a plug that has an open hole in it will alleviate any of your headtone problem either. Of course, I don't have one to test out, so I don't know for sure.


2) Do you really get more value for your money by purchasing the "top dog" for any of the major playing companies......as opposed to getting the lower priced models with custom molds??(UE,Sensa,garwood,westone,Future,Shure,ETY, etc...)????

Okay, so I can tell you this much, from an audiophile perspective, yes, they are worth every penny. The reason is that the high-end IEM's aren't just the lower-end product with integrated casing. The driver used inside, sound calibration, cross-over circuitry are all improved in their highest end model. So it's not just a matter of getting an integrated custom mold, but actually better sound regardless.

The question is, with a stage environment, are you going to notice that difference as much as off-stage? I can't answer that for obvious reasons, that's something that you'll have to find out on your own.

However, I'm very sure that multi-driver IEM's will perform far better than single driver counterparts. Single driver IEM's simply doesn't cover the entire spectrum range properly. It either doesn't extend down to the bass low enough, or it can't render bass with proper impact; especially in a stage performance environment, that is critical and important. Dual-driver units work much better in that case, so you should upgrade to something higher than the Shure E3c's (Shure E5c, perhaps) at least.

As for custom mold "attachments" for E3's and E5's... they don't improve sound at all. It's more for comfort (no more messing with different types of tips) and isolation. Even Sensaphonic reported that there's a 30% dissatisfaction rate with aftermarket fitted custom molds, due to the changed sound signature after the custom mold attachements. The driver placements are often not optimal, results vary greatly from person to person. There's a lot of uncontrolled variables that are completely controlled when the IEM's are made with custom molds rather than attached on later. The calibration of the driver in universal fit model also never takes in account of how a custom mold will affect it (it's impossible to do, not that they were lazy or something).


3)Does a half inch transducer really give better response than "hearing aid" drivers....even if there are 2 or 3 or even 4 driver models?

Ah.. so there goes the marketing spill.. I forgot which company insists that using dynamic driver (I'm assuming this is what you meant by "transducer", the dynamic driver models, right?) is better than using "balanced armature drivers". Was it FutureSonics? (I could easily go check their website, too lazy at the moment.. LOL)

To call balanced armature driver "hearing aids" is a misnomer, they've come a long way since hearing aids. They can produce a huge amount of sound spectrum even in single-driver models compared to conventional hearing aids. So if that hearing aid origination is scaring you, don't let it

Your Shure E3's are using balanced armature driver, I'm sure you don't feel that it's anywhere the quality of sound from a hearing aid, right?

Anyway, the main reason a lot of these IEM's are designed with balanced armature drivers, is that the design of balanced armature drivers allows it to have a much higher vibrating speed, thus it is able to create a higher level of detail than dynamic driver have trouble with. You see often that even the Ety ER-4 are compared with electrostatic headphones for its level of detail.

The achille's heel is that a single balanced armature driver doesn't have big enough of a membrane to produce the entire sound spectrum. This is the reason why dual-driver and triple-driver configurations were created. Different sized balanced armature drivers produces different spectrum with a passive crossover, the method works, and the result is very good.

Both my UE-10 Pro and ProPhonic 2X-S produces lower frequencies than any full-size headphone that I've tried, with better texture and tonality than just about anything out there. That's a testament that multi-balanced armature driver approach is the right one to take. Going from single to dual driver is a revelation to a different level of sound. Keep in mind, going from dual to triple driver isn't that much of an improvement, if you notice any improvement at all. This is from my personal experience, as I own both a three-way IEM and a two-way IEM... properly made dual-driver is just as good as triple-drivers.

As for dynamic transducers, its main advantage is that one transducer can cover the entire sound spectrum, no need for another way for lower frequency reproduction... etc. However, its chief disadvantage is that they will never produce the level of detail that balanced armature design can, due to the lack of being able to vibrate at high speed.

Once again, the question would be, when you're on-stage, how much are you going to notice about the difference in detail? *Shrug*

4) Can I get away with just getting the custom ear molds for my existing e3's and call it an upgrade?

I think this one has been answered by all the things I talked about above