Recommendations on Fluke DMM?
Mar 10, 2015 at 12:55 AM Thread Starter Post #1 of 14

sphinxvc

Headphoneus Supremus
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As above.  If I missed some recent thread on this - sorry.  Looking for recommendations on specific models.  I intend to build some headphone designs as well as some Pass power amp designs, in case that makes a difference.  
 
So far I've been eyeing the Fluke 179 and 87-V.
 
Mar 11, 2015 at 2:02 PM Post #4 of 14
Mar 11, 2015 at 2:44 PM Post #6 of 14
If you're only going to use the $6 meter on low-voltage (<= 30V) circuits and only need go/no-go test results, then yes, it probably is adequate.
 
Never use such a meter on a circuit that can kill you: the meter may happily assist in your assassination.
 
Never use such a meter where accuracy matters. I wouldn't expect it to tell me whether a 1% resistor is even in-spec, much less find another that matches it. I also wouldn't expect it to tell me whether the DC offset voltage on this op-amp is within spec. As a rule, below 10 mV, 10 mA, or 10 Ω, such a meter is useless.
 
Mar 11, 2015 at 3:00 PM Post #7 of 14
FUD. I use these on high voltage circuits all the time. Now, as a general rule, I don't poke around in high voltage circuits (with any meter), instead, I prefer to hook up a pile of meters to everything I am interested in and then turn it on. In this way, the $6 meter is considerably safer as I don't run the risk of shorting anything as I can afford a pile of them, and I can see all the relevant data at once. That said, in a decade of working on tube amps with 500V+ power supplies, I have never had a meter fail due to voltage within its specs. I have never heard of anybody else having this problem. Maybe they shouldn't be trusted at the margins, but they tend to comport with more expensive meters enough that I am not too worried. If you are, the various B&Ks cost a lot less than the Flukes and seem to offer similar specs.

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/equipment-tools/271185-best-handheld-multimeter-100ish.html#post4254302

 
Mar 11, 2015 at 5:08 PM Post #8 of 14

 
F = Fear.  Yes: Today is not a good day to die.
 
U = Uncertainty.  No: We know what goes into meters, and we know why those differences make professional meters cost more than cheapies.
 
D = Doubt. Yes: I doubt the accuracy of a meter that doesn't come with a NIST-traceable test report, can't be calibrated, often doesn't even include useful specs in its manual, and may well be outside the specs it does claim.
 
I use these on high voltage circuits all the time.

 
I'd hate to be your insurance underwriter.
 
Now, as a general rule, I don't poke around in high voltage circuits (with any meter), instead, I prefer to hook up a pile of meters to everything I am interested in and then turn it on.

 
This isn't always possible or practical.
 
Within our audio DIY field, yes, it usually is practical, if inconvenient.
 
But, professional meters are also used in power plants, on working HVAC equipment, etc. You can't turn off a building, or a power plant, just to make a single test.
 
You don't know what else the OP will use this meter on, after he gets done building one of the circuits we talk about here.
 
the $6 meter is considerably safer

 
You can do the same thing with an expensive meter. In fact, it's often easier, since you likely have a good set of grabber clips for an expensive meter, whereas adding a decent set of grabber probes to a cheap meter often exceeds the cost of a meter, so those who prefer to buy cheapies often eschew the good probes.
 
Yes, probe quality matters. A good probe will have a larger, better-insulated handle, made of material that isn't likely to crack and expose the internals. It will have superior ergonomics to keep your hands from slipping down to the metal: tacky silicone instead of PVC, broad finger shields instead of slab-sided cylinders, wider bodies to add increased insulation and avoid hand cramps, etc.
 
That said, in a decade of working on tube amps with 500V+ power supplies, I have never had a meter fail due to voltage within its specs.

 
One of the things we use meters for is to probe voltages we don't yet know.
 
We use meters on equipment that has failed, or isn't yet working correctly. We can't know what the voltages are until we use the meter to find out.
 
If you've never been surprised by a reading or gotten an overload indication, you've had a pretty narrow band of experience.
 
the various B&Ks cost a lot less than the Flukes and seem to offer similar specs. 

 
I've had mixed experience with B&K gear.
 
I've got one of their LCR meters here, and it works great. I've also got one of their all-analog bench supplies here, and it's a joy to use.
 
I've also got one of their signal generators here. It's so disappointing that it went back into the shipping box within a year of buying it, and sits in that box to this day. The sine wave function has ~2% distortion, the square waves ring, and the whole device has scarcely better build quality than a DIY project. I'm pretty sure the internals are DIY-project quality, too. It's probably just an ICL8038 in there.
 
Caveat emptor.
 
I've never used a B&K Precision DMM. If they built it like the LCR meter I have, then yes, it's probably trustworthy, both in terms of measurement and safety. But, it's not going to cost you $6, either. Their cheapest meter costs $32, and it's probably an outsourced Chinese ODM design that you could get elsewhere for cheaper. The stuff they actually design and make themselves will cost considerably more.
 
Mar 11, 2015 at 6:45 PM Post #9 of 14
  <snip>
 
Now, as a general rule, I don't poke around in high voltage circuits (with any meter), instead, I prefer to hook up a pile of meters to everything I am interested in and then turn it on.

 
This isn't always possible or practical.
 
Within our audio DIY field, yes, it usually is practical, if inconvenient.
 
But, professional meters are also used in power plants, on working HVAC equipment, etc. You can't turn off a building, or a power plant, just to make a single test.
 
You don't know what else the OP will use this meter on, after he gets done building one of the circuits we talk about here.
 
 

 
Tangent,
 
I normally agree with you on things, but the above is extreme.  You might have termed your "F" acronym-play with "Fear-mongering" while you were at it.
wink.gif

 
1. Buildings and power plants (even entire campuses) get shut down for a single test all the time.  You just have to schedule it.
 
2. More important, the idea that a recommendation here makes one responsible for the potential of using a hobby meter in an industrial environment is ridiculous.
 
The only example remotely possible that you suggest above would be someone working on their own HVAC equipment.  No one else is going to get anywhere close in the other environments without a fully-qualified set of tools and a heckuva lot of safety training, to boot.  (That is, unless they're an Engineer - then we can get away with all sorts of stupid stuff.)
 
I'm just curious what you think the limits of our responsibilities are when making product/tool recommendations ... or if there are any.
 
All the above goes well beyond the simple question of why someone would really need a $400 meter to match 2 cent resistors.
 
 
P.S. Dsavitsk is one of the safest people I know.  Speaking from personal experience, he has a very strong ethic about electrical safety that goes into everything he designs and builds.  I'm not sure this argument about meters should've been used to imply otherwise.
 
Mar 12, 2015 at 2:13 AM Post #10 of 14
  I normally agree with you on things, but the above is extreme.

 
Oh, I don't know, I thought it was based on a well-reasoned assessment of the risks. I'm not the sort to to demand safety at all costs. (I'd like to see the TSA disbanded, for example.) 
 
If I am over-engineering my personal approach to electrical safety, I claim that it's cheap insurance anyway. I'll bet everyone reading this has more money tied up in cans — and some of us more in a single set — than the delta on the meters in question.
 
 Buildings and power plants (even entire campuses) get shut down for a single test all the time.

 
If you look at all campuses and all power plants across the world, then I guess your statement is literally true, in about the same sort of way that we can say that lighting is striking all the time. That does not mean that this is the normal condition.
 
Any guesses on why this Fluke clamp meter has a beak?
 

 
It's so you can push it through a bundle of wires and clamp on to the one you want to test. You don't need that feature if you're going to shut the whole system down every time you use the thing.
 
the idea that a recommendation here makes one responsible for the potential of using a hobby meter in an industrial environment is ridiculous. 

 
That wasn't quite my point. My point is that there are good and valid reasons that more expensive meters are more expensive. There's more to consider than just front-page specs.
 
I've conditionally endorsed every meter mentioned here. I'm not telling you that you must go get a Fluke or you're gonna diiiiiie. What I am saying is that the flat statement that "A $6 meter will be more than adequate," is probably wrong even strictly within the scope of the original question.
 
I haven't looked inside that specific Harbor Freight meter, but I have seen tear-downs of such meters, and they often have insufficient creepage distance, no air gaps, no blast shields, poor to no fusing, and little to no input protection. Such meters are unsafe for use on anything you wouldn't be willing to touch with a bare finger. That includes "Pass power amp designs," since that almost certainly refers to something wall-powered.
 
The relevant safety standard here is IEC/UL 61010-1. For a wall-powered tube amp running at 500V, the minimum safety rating is Cat II 600 V, which has a minimum impulse voltage withstand requirement of 4 kV. Minimum creepage on FR4 for that is something like 6mm, and minimum air clearance is about 3mm. I've seen cheap meters that violate this, such as by running the trace from the red voltage jack right past the COM banana jack.
 
Perhaps someone who has this Harbor Freight meter will open it up, take some high-res pics, and let us all do a virtual tear-down on it.
 
That meter claims Cat II 1000V on its faceplate, but I don't see it listed in the UL certification database. I don't know where else to look for trustworthy certifications.
 
It has a CE mark on it, but the CE mark is often misused.
 
(Incidentally, I did find some $45 ExTech meters in that UL database. Like B&K, ExTech has a mixed record on good design, but some of their stuff is suitable to the purposes we're talking about here.)
 
 P.S. Dsavitsk is one of the safest people I know.  Speaking from personal experience, he has a very strong ethic about electrical safety that goes into everything he designs and builds.  I'm not sure this argument about meters should've been used to imply otherwise.

 
I'm not trying to offend anyone. I'm just telling you that I won't use a $6 meter on anything wall-powered, and I don't think you should, either.
 
That's free advice from some random guy on the Internet. It may be worth no more than you paid for it.
 
Mar 12, 2015 at 10:41 AM Post #11 of 14
 Quote:
 Buildings and power plants (even entire campuses) get shut down for a single test all the time.

 
If you look at all campuses and all power plants across the world, then I guess your statement is literally true, in about the same sort of way that we can say that lighting is striking all the time. That does not mean that this is the normal condition.
 
Any guesses on why this Fluke clamp meter has a beak?
 

 
It's so you can push it through a bundle of wires and clamp on to the one you want to test. You don't need that feature if you're going to shut the whole system down every time you use the thing.
 
<snip>
 
 P.S. Dsavitsk is one of the safest people I know.  Speaking from personal experience, he has a very strong ethic about electrical safety that goes into everything he designs and builds.  I'm not sure this argument about meters should've been used to imply otherwise.

 
I'm not trying to offend anyone. I'm just telling you that I won't use a $6 meter on anything wall-powered, and I don't think you should, either.
 
That's free advice from some random guy on the Internet. It may be worth no more than you paid for it.

 
You responded with some decent points.  However ...
 
We are all mostly anonymous on this forum, except and unless we meet each other at a meet.  Even then, there may be no reason at all to refer to our "day" jobs.  That said, I know you didn't know this when posing your challenging question about the clamp meter, but I am in the business.  I'm a registered Professional Engineer and have been doing building/plant design and engineering for 35+ years.  While my particular expertise is mechanical systems, I have personally removed the covers from panelboards, stuck an Amprobe current clamp meter (similar to your pic) inside and taken many readings.  I've also been inches away from bus bars in switchgear so old that the back consisted of a hinged wooden frame with chicken wire.  I've stood in AHU's big enough to cover two stories with doors that could rip your arm off from the air pressure.  I've been in tunnel ducts large enough to drive cars through and stood under a 9,000 hp wind tunnel fan.  Granted, it's been a number of years since I did a lot of that stuff.  Maybe I've forgotten a thing or two.
 
The point is, there is a level of appropriateness involved here that I don't think justifies $hundreds for a DMM.  If someone truly wants to pursue the rigors of accurate and industrial-strength meters, fine.  Yet, none of them are good enough in the environment mentioned above without regular calibration and certification.  That will often cost more than the meters themselves - certainly after having it done a few times.  However in the context of Head-Fi, I think what's been discussed by myself and Dsavitsk is perfectly reasonable.
 
Mar 12, 2015 at 7:29 PM Post #12 of 14
So far I've been eyeing the Fluke 179 and 87-V.

I have the 79 - built many amps with it - along with a 23.  I think the 179 is the successor of the 79.  I bought the 79 on ebay for no more than $40 - built very well - I see no point in new with Fluke.  I would also not recommend a meter without capacitance so stay away from something like a 23.  
 
Mar 14, 2015 at 1:15 PM Post #13 of 14
All the posts above are valuable food for thought, glad I started this off.  
 
As for me, I got impatient, and with the influence of one particular Amazon review, ended up buying the 87-V a day after I created this thread.  
 
I'm sure there are some $6 "throwaway" meters in my future as well - as I like the hook-up/turn-on safe approach Dsavitsk recommended.
 
I need to read more about electrical safety for sure, and start messing about with some perf-board low voltage battery powered headphone circuits first.  
 
Mar 15, 2015 at 2:37 PM Post #14 of 14
Very interesting discussion, both philosophically and technically.  I read through the lengthier replies 2-3 times.  FWIW I have a $55 ODM meter I got a long time ago from Sears.  The $6 harbor freight meter mentioned previously is the one my son uses for his low voltage DC science projects, and for 2 years I've been using a Fluke 179 for various stuff around the house.  I had a lot of problems with probe quality in the cheaper meters, once I invested the $$ in good probes I honestly can't say for certain whether or not my money was well spent on the Fluke.  As far as head-fi goes I think the most intricate/precise  thing I am doing is setting/matching bias voltages on my Millet hybrid when I tube roll it, and matching 75-150 ohm resistors for when I make resistive "impedance" adapters.
 
One thing a Fluke has going for it is a generally accepted level of quality and accuracy across a lot of DIY forums.  So if you are having difficulty on a project, and are getting strange measurements at various points in the circuit.  In a lot of cases the "double check your meter", "are you sure your meter is accurate?" aspect of trouble shooting becomes moot.  FWIW I periodically use my sons harbor freight meter to double check the accuracy of the Fluke.  That seems backwards, but I don't want to buy another good meter... just to spot check the first one.
 
I am not that experienced though and the Fluke provides added peace of mind... for the inexperienced.  I think for these aspects its $$ well spent.  I see it as one of those tools that you buy once, take care of it and keep it for a long long time.
 
Am I way off base in my line of thinking?
 

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