kwkarth
Electronics guys... we have our plusses and minuses. With advent of digital everything, we're being phased out
- Joined
- Sep 30, 2001
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haha!
That's pretty funny Chalky, er...I mean Dusty...
Anyway, I think I understand where you're coming from now. Thanks for the further explanation.
Why are crossovers bad? Why do we not like them?
No, please, let me answer...
The typical cheesebag bunko crossover of yesteryear messed up the sound through time smear by hosing up phase allignment of the audio.
Typical 2 or 3 way speakers had/have a woofer which is fed by a low pass filter with typically a one, two, or three, or four pole (6db, 12db, 18db or 24db per octave slope) cutoff. The midrange driver was/is usually fed through a pass band filter with cutoffs above and below the range of the driver's capacity, and then the tweeter is similarly fed through a highpass filter which cuts off on the bottom end below the tweeter's response capability.
The typical designer looks at the response curve and listens to each driver in a system, often using pink noise as a source to determine where to set the bounds of a driver's frequency response, avoiding resonance nodes and other response anomalies by keeping the "problems" outside of the frequencies you send the given driver.
If you design a great crossover, but push your drivers beyond where they perform well, or if you use great drivers, but skimp on the crossover design, either way, you end up with less than great sound.
Using a sub with cans...
Human hearing is very sensitive to phase allignment in the midrange and lower HF range. Even minor shifts of even a few degrees can be detected by trained ears. Minor phase shifts at low (bass) frequencies are much harder to detect. Most folks don't notice it until it begins to introduce comb filtering or other sonic cancellation effects.
Wavelengths of low frequencies are measured in FEET, not inches so for way more than adequate phase allignment between sub and can, things are just fine to have the sub located in the same room, but it is not necessarry to be sitting on it!
Since the K1000's are running full range (they naturally run out of gas below 45hz so that's how I chose that xover frequency for the sub) there is no alteration to the full range response characteristics of the cans.
BTW, the sub level is very low in amplitude to match well with the cans, so low in fact that even though it's noticable without wearing the headphones, it wouldn't bother anybody. When wearing the cans, you cannot tell that the sound is coming from an external source. It integrates very nicely. I'm using a "cheap" modified Sony SA-WM40. Can't go wrong for the bux.
see: http://www.epinions.com/Sony_SA_WM40_626383
http://www.audioreview.com/PRD_124407_2741crx.aspx
For the record, the K1000's drop off very rapidly below 40Hz due as much as anything else to self cancellation since they're bipolar radiators. (Like Maggies for your ears) The xover on my sub is 24db/octave. I've tried other subs including a very expensive REL with my K1000's and since the needs are so modest, the sub I have sounds absoultely as good and maybe even better than the REL for this application.
I have a couple pair of HD580's, a pair of HD600's and a pair of K-501's, and use the Max and the SAC to drive them besides the K1000's and the K1000 with the sub is absolutely more satisfying than any of the other options.
Well, that's my $0.02!
Cheers!
Anyway, I think I understand where you're coming from now. Thanks for the further explanation.
Why are crossovers bad? Why do we not like them?
No, please, let me answer...
The typical cheesebag bunko crossover of yesteryear messed up the sound through time smear by hosing up phase allignment of the audio.
Typical 2 or 3 way speakers had/have a woofer which is fed by a low pass filter with typically a one, two, or three, or four pole (6db, 12db, 18db or 24db per octave slope) cutoff. The midrange driver was/is usually fed through a pass band filter with cutoffs above and below the range of the driver's capacity, and then the tweeter is similarly fed through a highpass filter which cuts off on the bottom end below the tweeter's response capability.
The typical designer looks at the response curve and listens to each driver in a system, often using pink noise as a source to determine where to set the bounds of a driver's frequency response, avoiding resonance nodes and other response anomalies by keeping the "problems" outside of the frequencies you send the given driver.
If you design a great crossover, but push your drivers beyond where they perform well, or if you use great drivers, but skimp on the crossover design, either way, you end up with less than great sound.
Using a sub with cans...
Human hearing is very sensitive to phase allignment in the midrange and lower HF range. Even minor shifts of even a few degrees can be detected by trained ears. Minor phase shifts at low (bass) frequencies are much harder to detect. Most folks don't notice it until it begins to introduce comb filtering or other sonic cancellation effects.
Wavelengths of low frequencies are measured in FEET, not inches so for way more than adequate phase allignment between sub and can, things are just fine to have the sub located in the same room, but it is not necessarry to be sitting on it!
BTW, the sub level is very low in amplitude to match well with the cans, so low in fact that even though it's noticable without wearing the headphones, it wouldn't bother anybody. When wearing the cans, you cannot tell that the sound is coming from an external source. It integrates very nicely. I'm using a "cheap" modified Sony SA-WM40. Can't go wrong for the bux.
see: http://www.epinions.com/Sony_SA_WM40_626383
http://www.audioreview.com/PRD_124407_2741crx.aspx
For the record, the K1000's drop off very rapidly below 40Hz due as much as anything else to self cancellation since they're bipolar radiators. (Like Maggies for your ears) The xover on my sub is 24db/octave. I've tried other subs including a very expensive REL with my K1000's and since the needs are so modest, the sub I have sounds absoultely as good and maybe even better than the REL for this application.
I have a couple pair of HD580's, a pair of HD600's and a pair of K-501's, and use the Max and the SAC to drive them besides the K1000's and the K1000 with the sub is absolutely more satisfying than any of the other options.
Well, that's my $0.02!
Cheers!