Ray Samuels B52, has it been forgotten? It's the king, imho.
Nov 2, 2010 at 9:26 PM Post #19 of 35

Trysaeder

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The problem with 2k+ amps is that the actual cost of the components that make sound is less than $500 unless you're using magic cables. Even $500 is a generous estimate.
 
There's very little argument suggesting that expensive amps are much more than psychological effects, like expensive cables. All of such argument consists of 'impressions'. People 'hear' things where there is no difference, so why not settle for the cheapest amp that can make you 'hear' things? You get the same effect for much less.
 
Nov 2, 2010 at 9:49 PM Post #20 of 35

nikongod

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Quote:
The problem with 2k+ amps is that the actual cost of the components that make sound is less than $500 unless you're using magic cables. Even $500 is a generous estimate.
 


your assesment of the parts cost of most of the $2k & up amps:
A: is hopelessly inacurate
B: ignores build time
 
But thanks for telling the forum what you know about nothing!
 
Nov 2, 2010 at 10:25 PM Post #21 of 35

estreeter

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Agree that most are not in a position to pay $5,350 for a headphone amp, but it would be right at home in the preamp market, and we aren't really talking 'high-end' either. For those who have several thousand dollars in cables, stands and power conditioning kit, I guess the B52 slots right in between their monoblocks and 50K speakers - for the rest of us, its back to work 
smily_headphones1.gif

 
Nov 2, 2010 at 11:42 PM Post #22 of 35

Uncle Erik

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Quote:
The problem with 2k+ amps is that the actual cost of the components that make sound is less than $500 unless you're using magic cables. Even $500 is a generous estimate.
 
There's very little argument suggesting that expensive amps are much more than psychological effects, like expensive cables. All of such argument consists of 'impressions'. People 'hear' things where there is no difference, so why not settle for the cheapest amp that can make you 'hear' things? You get the same effect for much less.


Oh, really?
 
What amps, specifically, are you talking about?
 
Have you ever done DIY?  Are you an electrical engineer?
 
Have you ever measured the output of an amp?
 
What's your take on build quality?  Would you want a poorly-implemented power supply running off a third-world discount transformer from whoknowswhere built by child labor that is under-spec and might catch fire?
 
And when your cheap amp stops working, do you want the solder pads to lift on the PCB making it impossible to fix for less than the amp cost new?
 
There are real, measurable and demonstrable differences between amps.  Putting more into an amp should get you a robust power supply with no AC ripple as well as build quality that can be measured in decades instead of months.
 
Nov 3, 2010 at 12:01 AM Post #23 of 35

estreeter

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I agree with those who have taken exception to trysaeder's "here we go again" post - some of us seem to work on the implicit assumption that the implementation is worth absolutely zero dollars. Surely there are enough DIY amps on the market for those who feel agrieved by high-end prices to get out and build their own kit ?
 
- when the media got the parts bill for the iPhone, they had a field day. The R&D that has gone into the final product was completely ignored. I havent been to Cupertino, but I'm fairly confident that its not a cheap place to live.
 
- if we follow the Asian model for software resale, Microsoft Office has a wholesale value equating to a single DVD-RW and the time Uncle Somchai has taken to download the hack for the license keys. If you have ever written code for a living, I suspect that you wont be enthralled with this model.
 
 
Nov 3, 2010 at 1:58 AM Post #24 of 35

InFn-0

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My understanding of this is that since not many people are buying this $5k amp, not many people are recommending it either, which ultimately makes it unpopular.
 
Nov 3, 2010 at 3:06 AM Post #25 of 35

Trysaeder

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Quote:
Oh, really?
 
What amps, specifically, are you talking about?
 
Have you ever done DIY?  Are you an electrical engineer?
 
Have you ever measured the output of an amp?
 
What's your take on build quality?  Would you want a poorly-implemented power supply running off a third-world discount transformer from whoknowswhere built by child labor that is under-spec and might catch fire?
 
And when your cheap amp stops working, do you want the solder pads to lift on the PCB making it impossible to fix for less than the amp cost new?
 
There are real, measurable and demonstrable differences between amps.  Putting more into an amp should get you a robust power supply with no AC ripple as well as build quality that can be measured in decades instead of months.


Specifically the Luxman P-1u and SPL Auditor/Phonitor.
 
Yes I have done DIY (M³) as well as had first hand access to my father's old radio job workplace. I am planning to build a B22 when my phones would appreciate it.
 
Build quality is irrelevant to this discussion, and so is r+d. I stating that the cost of sounding parts between amps such as the Luxman and B22 are very similar. There is no reason to suggest the parts for the b52 will be any different.
 
I am pointing out the reason that high end amps are not all universally recommended is because they do not offer so much more compared to their cheaper counterparts in terms of sound. Look at the Auditor vs Phonitor, they sound the same, yet the price you pay for a Phonitor goes to something that allows you to improve the sound. That is an example where there is noticeably and obviously some improvement.
 
You are not seeing what I am saying in empirical terms; your response suggests a much more emotional one. A logical person with your concerns would question how much money needs to be spent on a powersupply, how much must be spent on a chassis and how good the builder is. A quality power supply does not cost unworldly amounts of cash; you could have a 'good as it gets' powersupply in an $800 amp. The chassis DOES cost a lot, the figures scare me when I look at it. It does not affect sound, which is separate from my point. I have built only one M³ and I feel that I can already build a second one perfectly.
 
Your second last statement reminds me of an amusing quote I read. Paraphrased, "My $100 cable offers measurable differences and greatly enhances my enjoyment. In terms of measurement, it is 6 feet longer, in terms of enjoyment, I can now listen from my favorite couch.". The weight, the increase to your power bill are both measurable. Show me a measurement of the difference in sound of two high end amplifiers, or, if you can't find them, an entry level and a high end.
 
If we take all those extra factors into account, quality case, name, r+d, I am confident that the beta22 retail version will have an asking price of $4000 as well (also, the flagship status markup).
 
Nov 3, 2010 at 11:55 AM Post #26 of 35

vcoheda

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if you are a senn guy (600, 650, 800), i would not hesitate to buy a B52. i preferred the 800 on the B52 over the
 
 - Beta22
 - Balancing Act
 - Phoenix
 - Luxman P1
 - Headroom Balanced Max
 - WA22
 - WA5
 
plus many other lower-ends amps.
 
Nov 5, 2010 at 4:56 PM Post #27 of 35

rgs9200m

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Yep, the HD800s are awesome on the B52. I don't say that lightly. I have 20 years of solid headphone experience and found a majority of things basically unlistenable.
 
Dec 28, 2010 at 8:36 PM Post #28 of 35

janicegetp

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Maxvla said:
/img/forum/go_quote.gif


Comparatively more high end users (deep pockets) are in the land of stats. I know if I were contemplating a $5k amp (such as this) I would have to give a BHSE and it's associated gear a run also.
 
 
 
Also, this is really easy to say when you are at the end of you headphone journey.
tongue_smile.gif

 
But, instead of churning thru lots of phones and amps, it would have been cheaper for me to just bite the bullet
and buy a B52 first and one set of top-end phones and leave it at that.




Nice writing, Thanks for your effort!
 
Dec 28, 2010 at 10:14 PM Post #29 of 35

rgs9200m

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I had Stats once (Stax O2s/007t amp). Never really liked them. At the time (1999) the Senn 600s/650s were probably the best dynamics around (leaving R10s out of the picture here),
and the Staxes were competitive (OK better).
Times have changed.
Now there are lots of dynamics that make the 650s and 701s of the last century sound like toys.
With a great amp (like a B52 or other high-caliber ones I'm sure), these modern phones provide high-end sound up there with super-megabuck speaker-based systems.
 
I am not aware of similar upward progress in Stat-land (but I'm all ears if something comes along).
 
My B52/HD800 combo leaves my old Stax setup (which I used for 7+ years) far in the dust.
The B52 with my T1s isn't far behind.
 
Dec 28, 2010 at 10:37 PM Post #30 of 35

PFKMan23

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Quote:
I had Stats once (Stax O2s/007t amp). Never really liked them. At the time (1999) the Senn 600s/650s were probably the best dynamics around (leaving R10s out of the picture here),
and the Staxes were competitive (OK better).
Times have changed.
Now there are lots of dynamics that make the 650s and 701s of the last century sound like toys.
With a great amp (like a B52 or other high-caliber ones I'm sure), these modern phones provide high-end sound up there with super-megabuck speaker-based systems.
 
I am not aware of similar upward progress in Stat-land (but I'm all ears if something comes along).
 
My B52/HD800 combo leaves my old Stax setup (which I used for 7+ years) far in the dust.
The B52 with my T1s isn't far behind.

 
I would have loved to hear your thoughts had you used your O2 with a better amp.
 
 

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