RAAL 1995 Immanis

[chrisyak]

May I ask why you’d need a DAC with high Vrms?

I'm currently working on an in-depth review of the Raal Immanis ribbon headphones. These headphones are incredibly revealing but present a significant challenge due to their extremely low impedance and high power requirements. I also love to listen to them loud and find that they really bring out and find that they tend to excel when played at even louder volumes.

I've experimented with several high-end amplifiers, including the T+A HA 200 and Violectric V590 V2 and now the Mass Kobo 465.

• T+A HA 200: I found that the HA 200's XLR output, with its maximum voltage of approximately 4.5 Vrms and a 10 dB reduction in output with low-impedance headphones, didn't provide enough power to drive the Raal Immanis to their full potential. I experienced audible distortion at higher volumes, indicating the amplifier was struggling.
• Violectric V590 V2: The V590 V2 offered a higher volume output, but it introduced too much distortion when paired with the Raal Immanis.
• Mass Kobo 465: It's one of the most powerful solid-state headphone amplifiers in the world, and it successfully drove the Raal Immanis without any issues. This, however, highlighted the limitations of my current DAC. I temporarily used an Eversolo A6 Streamer/DAC, which demonstrated the importance of a high-voltage output DAC when paired with such a powerful amplifier.

My ultimate goal is to find a single, high-end DAC/Streamer that can serve as a reference component for all my headphone testing. This DAC/Streamer needs to be able to drive any headphone I throw at it, including the Raal Immanis, Susvara, and Tungsten, to their maximum potential without any hint of distortion. I need a DAC/streamer that delivers both exceptional sound quality and sufficient power, particularly through its XLR output and has high Vrms.

 

[gammi]

I've tried Immanis with probably close to 20 different amps so far and maybe 5 different DACs.

If I were to generalize what makes for good synergy I would say anything that provides extra "richness" while also providing some minimum level of speed/sharpness such that it doesn't slow down/bottleneck Immanis. So for example I haven't felt the Holo products are best with Immanis. They do have a rich sound but also I felt they smoothed the sound over too much, this goes for both Cyan 2 and Bliss (I haven't tried May). But in comparison AIC-10 and VM-1a are both very fast/impactful while adding a bit of tube harmonic tonal richness. These are both perfect. Gustard X30 is pretty perfect too, many have referred to it as sounding like a cross between R2R and delta sigma, which is exactly what I think is best for Immanis.

I wouldn't want any DAC/amp that's just pure smoothness or pure speed, so anything overly "gooey tube" or anything overly "sharp solid state" I wouldn't want. I want rich but fast, which further enhances the strengths of Immanis. Many hybrid amps (like AIC-10) or balanced push-pull amps (like VM-1a) are probably a good idea because they're best of both worlds kind of setups. I don't think I prefer SET tubes or pure solid state with Immanis, SET being too tubey and pure solid state being too clean. Also the lower feedback you can do, the better imo, don't want that slowing things down.

TLDR; You want your chain to add richness/texture but not roll anything off or smooth over any of Immanis' speed.
Rich tonal density but fast/clear, just like Immanis is.

 

[normie610]

I'm currently working on an in-depth review of the Raal Immanis ribbon headphones. These headphones are incredibly revealing but present a significant challenge due to their extremely low impedance and high power requirements. I also love to listen to them loud and find that they really bring out and find that they tend to excel when played at even louder volumes.

I've experimented with several high-end amplifiers, including the T+A HA 200 and Violectric V590 V2 and now the Mass Kobo 465.

• T+A HA 200: I found that the HA 200's XLR output, with its maximum voltage of approximately 4.5 Vrms and a 10 dB reduction in output with low-impedance headphones, didn't provide enough power to drive the Raal Immanis to their full potential. I experienced audible distortion at higher volumes, indicating the amplifier was struggling.
• Violectric V590 V2: The V590 V2 offered a higher volume output, but it introduced too much distortion when paired with the Raal Immanis.
• Mass Kobo 465: It's one of the most powerful solid-state headphone amplifiers in the world, and it successfully drove the Raal Immanis without any issues. This, however, highlighted the limitations of my current DAC. I temporarily used an Eversolo A6 Streamer/DAC, which demonstrated the importance of a high-voltage output DAC when paired with such a powerful amplifier.

My ultimate goal is to find a single, high-end DAC/Streamer that can serve as a reference component for all my headphone testing. This DAC/Streamer needs to be able to drive any headphone I throw at it, including the Raal Immanis, Susvara, and Tungsten, to their maximum potential without any hint of distortion. I need a DAC/streamer that delivers both exceptional sound quality and sufficient power, particularly through its XLR output and has high Vrms.

I don’t know whether this would be helpful or not, but I have no issue using Lumin P1 with demanding headphones (e.g. OG Sus, 1266 TC) and that’s from RCA output. Granted, I use a single ended preamp (RCA input only) which of course increases the overall output power. But I’ve also tried direct connection from P1’s RCA to my amp, and found no issues at all with driveability.

I don't think I prefer SET tubes or pure solid state with Immanis, SET being too tubey and pure solid state being too clean

There are a few exceptions to this, and that includes Primavera. It’s a SET amp, but it’s far from being too tubey. Perfectly balanced and clean sounding but still retains that euphonic tube sound and “roundness” to the notes. A perfect pairing with Immanis.

 

[jonchard]

Not trying to prove or disprove anything. Seems to me you think the whole world is against you. All I did was look at the graphs on the Accurate Sound website and compare them for the headphones we’re talking about. Mitch is a respected member of the community and his measurements have a consistent methodology across all the headphones for which he’s produced convolution filters. If you’ve seen different graphically represented results make sure they’re not specifically for one headphone but are for all the headphones we’re talking about.

It's interesting you always, and i mean always have something contrary to say. If i was commenting of a headphone i didnt have side by side, then i might understand your provocation. I think the bass discussion has been utterly flogged to death, and i think you know so

When you finally get to hear both or all three you will realise how daft the comment was.

 

[cAsE sEnSiTiVe]

My ultimate goal is to find a single, high-end DAC/Streamer that can serve as a reference component for all my headphone testing. This DAC/Streamer needs to be able to drive any headphone I throw at it, including the Raal Immanis, Susvara, and Tungsten, to their maximum potential without any hint of distortion. I need a DAC/streamer that delivers both exceptional sound quality and sufficient power, particularly through its XLR output and has high Vrms.

The Lumin X1 puts out 6Vrms through its balanced outputs. That's considered higher than what is typical, and sounds absolutely sublime with either the VM-1a or HSA-1b driving my Immanis.

 

[chrisyak]

The Lumin X1 puts out 6Vrms through its balanced outputs. That's considered higher than what is typical, and sounds absolutely sublime with either the VM-1a or HSA-1b driving my Immanis.

I like your sources and that's kind of what I'm trying to go for. I would like to use the lumin X1 for dac / streaming via my dedicated music server using Roon for organizing and meta data of my collection of music on my pc using my network or ethernet.

How do you use the Ayre Codex, Innuos PhoenixNET, Gigafoil v4 with your sources?

 

[cAsE sEnSiTiVe]

I like your sources and that's kind of what I'm trying to go for. I would like to use the lumin X1 for dac / streaming via my dedicated music server using Roon for organizing and meta data of my collection of music on my pc using my network or ethernet.

How do you use the Ayre Codex, Innuos PhoenixNET, Gigafoil v4 with your sources?

The Ayre Codex is in another room and system, connected to my Beta 22 amp, driving a pair of Susvara's.

The PhoenixNET takes the ethernet cable from my router, then goes out to a pair of Gigafoil's, one of those into the Lumin, the other into my Roon NUC. I would eventually like to try a fiber conversion into the Lumin, just haven't gotten around to it. I'm using the LEEDH processing in the Lumin for volume control, and have the volume control on both amps pegged wide open at unity gain...since both use a stepped attenuator. The LEEDH processor, if not familiar with it, is fantastic. Completely eliminates the need for a preamp.

 

[jonchard]

The Ayre Codex is in another room and system, connected to my Beta 22 amp, driving a pair of Susvara's.

The PhoenixNET takes the ethernet cable from my router, then goes out to a pair of Gigafoil's, one of those into the Lumin, the other into my Roon NUC. I would eventually like to try a fiber conversion into the Lumin, just haven't gotten around to it. I'm using the LEEDH processing in the Lumin for volume control, and have the volume control on both amps pegged wide open at unity gain...since both use a stepped attenuator. The LEEDH processor, if not familiar with it, is fantastic. Completely eliminates the need for a preamp.

If you had a power outage.... could it restart with volume at max on the processor and hence full volume at the speakers / headphones? Always make me nervous. I used to run the HA300II like it but made me sweat too much!

 

[normie610]

The Ayre Codex is in another room and system, connected to my Beta 22 amp, driving a pair of Susvara's.

The PhoenixNET takes the ethernet cable from my router, then goes out to a pair of Gigafoil's, one of those into the Lumin, the other into my Roon NUC. I would eventually like to try a fiber conversion into the Lumin, just haven't gotten around to it. I'm using the LEEDH processing in the Lumin for volume control, and have the volume control on both amps pegged wide open at unity gain...since both use a stepped attenuator. The LEEDH processor, if not familiar with it, is fantastic. Completely eliminates the need for a preamp.

+1 on LEEDH. On another note, I found that Lumin products are a bit overlooked in the head-fi world. It’s a shame as they’re products sound incredible, especially the X1 and P1.

 

[cAsE sEnSiTiVe]

If you had a power outage.... could it restart with volume at max on the processor and hence full volume at the speakers / headphones? Always make me nervous. I used to run the HA300II like it but made me sweat too much!

I suppose it's possible. My Shunyata power conditioner that everything is plugged into, has an over-current breaker. Also, the system volume is done off my tablet at my listening chair, which is muted and at zero volume when not in use. We've had two outages in the 13 years we've been here, and no issues. But yeah, it's always something to take into consideration, no doubt.

EDIT: I forgot to add, when I'm not listening to either amp, the volume is at zero there as well. Of course the tube amp is powered down when not in use.

 

[Sajid Amit]

I've tried Immanis with probably close to 20 different amps so far and maybe 5 different DACs.

If I were to generalize what makes for good synergy I would say anything that provides extra "richness" while also providing some minimum level of speed/sharpness such that it doesn't slow down/bottleneck Immanis. So for example I haven't felt the Holo products are best with Immanis. They do have a rich sound but also I felt they smoothed the sound over too much, this goes for both Cyan 2 and Bliss (I haven't tried May). But in comparison AIC-10 and VM-1a are both very fast/impactful while adding a bit of tube harmonic tonal richness. These are both perfect. Gustard X30 is pretty perfect too, many have referred to it as sounding like a cross between R2R and delta sigma, which is exactly what I think is best for Immanis.

I wouldn't want any DAC/amp that's just pure smoothness or pure speed, so anything overly "gooey tube" or anything overly "sharp solid state" I wouldn't want. I want rich but fast, which further enhances the strengths of Immanis. Many hybrid amps (like AIC-10) or balanced push-pull amps (like VM-1a) are probably a good idea because they're best of both worlds kind of setups. I don't think I prefer SET tubes or pure solid state with Immanis, SET being too tubey and pure solid state being too clean. Also the lower feedback you can do, the better imo, don't want that slowing things down.

TLDR; You want your chain to add richness/texture but not roll anything off or smooth over any of Immanis' speed.
Rich tonal density but fast/clear, just like Immanis is.

Well-explained! Thanks!

 

[biscottino]

so, this morning I made the change of the 4 el34, 4 mullard xf4 of Blackburn took the place of the 4 Psvane el34 ph Replica.
This weekend I will deepen their sound.
The other 2 el34 are always Mullard, but xf4 of Brussels with double square getter.

 

[CharlyBrown]

If the measurement system isn’t rolling off, the AUDEZE LCD-4 is NOT down at 15 Hz.
My own measurements below don’t show any sign of rolloff at 20 Hz.

And if you want more, just EQ it in - LCD-4 takes whatever you throw at it and is highly chain-agnostic - just needs enough power for the loudness level you ask for.

But keep in mind, and I tested it with LCD-4: a sine wave 20 Hz and below is inaudible if it’s not harmonically distorted.
Even at very high level you just get some kind of “uncomfortable” feel.
The bass distortion is one of the tricks of Abyss 1266.

I‘d love to see more of that in this thread…

I'm currently working on an in-depth review of the Raal Immanis ribbon headphones. These headphones are incredibly revealing but present a significant challenge due to their extremely low impedance and high power requirements. I also love to listen to them loud and find that they really bring out and find that they tend to excel when played at even louder volumes.

I've experimented with several high-end amplifiers, including the T+A HA 200 and Violectric V590 V2 and now the Mass Kobo 465.

• T+A HA 200: I found that the HA 200's XLR output, with its maximum voltage of approximately 4.5 Vrms and a 10 dB reduction in output with low-impedance headphones, didn't provide enough power to drive the Raal Immanis to their full potential. I experienced audible distortion at higher volumes, indicating the amplifier was struggling.
• Violectric V590 V2: The V590 V2 offered a higher volume output, but it introduced too much distortion when paired with the Raal Immanis.
• Mass Kobo 465: It's one of the most powerful solid-state headphone amplifiers in the world, and it successfully drove the Raal Immanis without any issues. This, however, highlighted the limitations of my current DAC. I temporarily used an Eversolo A6 Streamer/DAC, which demonstrated the importance of a high-voltage output DAC when paired with such a powerful amplifier.

My ultimate goal is to find a single, high-end DAC/Streamer that can serve as a reference component for all my headphone testing. This DAC/Streamer needs to be able to drive any headphone I throw at it, including the Raal Immanis, Susvara, and Tungsten, to their maximum potential without any hint of distortion. I need a DAC/streamer that delivers both exceptional sound quality and sufficient power, particularly through its XLR output and has high

If you need a lot of power into the amp, a preamp might be something to consider. That of course breaks the goal to use a single multi purpose box. My Spring+preamp has a max output of 11.6 Vrms via XLR. I guess a Serene or other preamp is in the same range.

TLDR; You want your chain to add richness/texture but not roll anything off or smooth over any of Immanis' speed.
Rich tonal density but fast/clear, just like Immanis is.

That’s the beauty of tube rolling, in my opinion. You can use tubes that give you exactly that or you can play in all directions, based on current mood. With these options, it‘s not carved in stone what „you want“ in a specific situation but you can always adjust. Add an SS amp for optional hybrid operation and you can even play more. I don’t think there is a single universal truth when it comes to using Immanis.

 

[Doug2507]

I'm currently working on an in-depth review of the Raal Immanis ribbon headphones. These headphones are incredibly revealing but present a significant challenge due to their extremely low impedance and high power requirements. I also love to listen to them loud and find that they really bring out and find that they tend to excel when played at even louder volumes.

I've experimented with several high-end amplifiers, including the T+A HA 200 and Violectric V590 V2 and now the Mass Kobo 465.

• T+A HA 200: I found that the HA 200's XLR output, with its maximum voltage of approximately 4.5 Vrms and a 10 dB reduction in output with low-impedance headphones, didn't provide enough power to drive the Raal Immanis to their full potential. I experienced audible distortion at higher volumes, indicating the amplifier was struggling.
• Violectric V590 V2: The V590 V2 offered a higher volume output, but it introduced too much distortion when paired with the Raal Immanis.
• Mass Kobo 465: It's one of the most powerful solid-state headphone amplifiers in the world, and it successfully drove the Raal Immanis without any issues. This, however, highlighted the limitations of my current DAC. I temporarily used an Eversolo A6 Streamer/DAC, which demonstrated the importance of a high-voltage output DAC when paired with such a powerful amplifier.

My ultimate goal is to find a single, high-end DAC/Streamer that can serve as a reference component for all my headphone testing. This DAC/Streamer needs to be able to drive any headphone I throw at it, including the Raal Immanis, Susvara, and Tungsten, to their maximum potential without any hint of distortion. I need a DAC/streamer that delivers both exceptional sound quality and sufficient power, particularly through its XLR output and has high Vrms.

Maybe a slightly unusual approach there Chris. Immanis only needs around 3w I think Alex said previously. With Envy + Immanis most users are already dropping DAC output, I have mine just over 1vrms into Envy (around -14dB on M21) and when straight into XA30 it's just over half that (-36db) The XA is around 7.5w per channel at 32ohm but has an input gain of 26dB which will blow your socks off compared to Envy using the DAC as pre.

With the 590, I'm only assuming you had volume at 12 and started on lowest gain working up to what was a reasonable volume around 12 on the pot? (think 590 is the same as US5+ and it'll have gain dip switches on the back?)

What gain settings did you use with the 465?

 

[simorag]

Re: Immanis pairings and synergies

Over the last 300+ pages of this thread there has been plenty of valuable feedback about how users feel their gear pair with the Immanis, and a pattern has now taken shape very clearly. The vast majority of owners, myself included, believe that the best sonic results are obtained within systems (source + amp) having some degree of warmth and densifying coloration w.r.t. a dead center neutral ideal.

All headphones are sensitive to upstream gear to some degree, but the Immanis take this truism to the next level, behaving in an almost chameleon-like fashion. They can sound anywhere from cold, lean, aggressive to warm, bloomy, laid-back depending on the system they have behind them. Of course, we are not talking HD800 OG to LCD4 spectrum, but still a significant range of character change.

And, while in most cases we speak about synergy but we actually mean to fix shortcomings in certain components of our systems by acting on others, with the Immanis there is close to nothing to really 'fix', and synergy is mostly an exercise towards making them sound from great to spectacular, or closer to our subjective sonic balance preferences.

This does not mean that they are the one-and-only, as there are many paths to aural pleasure, and the Immanis way offers just one - very effective - of them.

Re: Immanis speaker analogy and bass

I believe that @Aleksandar R. was spot on with his 15'' drivers floorstander analogy. This type of loudspeakers tend to produce a big sonic landscape with big musical images, and a visceral immediacy in the bass region. Some of them, especially high efficiency designs (95-100dB or more), have this disarming dynamics effortlessness and speed that is as difficult to explain in words as easy to be enjoyed when experienced, making music seem so real and alive. It is rather rare that these speakers go below, say, 35Hz, and their sub-bass is usually very tight and tuneful but does not have a voluptuous gestalt.

These may be generalizations, but they fit the core of the Immanis presentation as well, minus the scale factor, with the advantage that the Immanis sub bass actually goes already quite close to 20Hz (my ears tell me 25-30Hz) in stock form and can be enhanced in quantity quite easily (to a degree) with some EQ.