R2R/multibit vs Delta-Sigma - Is There A Measurable Scientific Difference That's Audible
Aug 22, 2019 at 7:05 AM Post #1,081 of 1,344
One question though (seriously), if gravity accelerates why do objects fall at a constant rate?


Falling objects do accelerate, but eventually the acceleration slows or stops due to the effect of other forces. In atmosphere, rate of fall is usually thresholded by air resistance limitations driven by the coefficient of drag.
 
Aug 22, 2019 at 7:41 AM Post #1,082 of 1,344
[1] There is a specific difference between saying: "Most people don't notice much difference between most R2R and D-S DACs.".... And saying: "There is no difference between them that is audible to any human under any circumstances."....

This is a good example of an all too common tactic employed in this and various other discussions (audible cable differences for example) by trolls and those peddling some product or false audiophile belief/myth! IE. They make up one or more false assertions (or completely misrepresent a true assertion to make it false), falsely state (or imply) those assertions are being made by the members here, then argue that those assertions are false (which of course they are) and therefore that the members here are wrong (and not being scientific). At the very least, they hope to derail the thread by arguing about the semantics of their (false) assertions/misrepresentations and deflecting from what's actually being stated/the actual facts!

To answer the quote directly: Yes, there is a specific difference between saying those two things but what has that got to do with anything? Both of those two assertions are false (which you've just made up) and NO ONE here is "saying" either of them! And therefore, whether or not there's a "specific difference" between them is utterly irrelevant, unless of course one is deliberately trying to derail/troll the thread?!! The second assertion is particularly annoying because firstly, it's so obviously false and secondly, it's been stated numerous times not only that there are conditions/circumstances (to our assertion of no audible differences) but actually detailed what those conditions/circumstances are. However, this fact is simply ignored, the false assertion (and false implication that we are making that assertion), is just repeated. What rational conclusion can we draw other than that it's just a deliberate attempt to troll/derail the thread???

In fact, I personally happen to believe that most of what they [in the cables forum] believe is incorrect, based on my personal knowledge and experience.
However, as an engineer, I can easily provide numerous examples of situations where different cables do in fact sound quite different.....

Then please do so. However (!), obviously ONLY "numerous examples" WITHIN the conditions are acceptable. With no conditions it's trivially easy to provide numerous examples and one doesn't need to be an engineer. For example, just take one correctly functioning cable and one completely broken cable, the audible difference would be obvious (and truly "night and day")! Same if you take say a fully functioning headphone cable and a fully functioning Ethernet cable, the headphone cable will sound "night and day different" because you can't even plug the Ethernet cable into a pair of headphones! Therefore, to anyone except an idiot, a troll or both, there OBVIOUSLY has to be some conditions.

Example conditions would be: Both cables are functioning correctly, both cables are of approximately the same length, both cables are designed for and appropriate for the task (they are being tested for) and that the other variables of the test (the input signals to the cable for example) are the same for both cables. Now in a rational discussion, with a basic understanding of science, we wouldn't need to explicitly detail these conditions, they would be self-evident. Furthermore, an engineer is required to be capable of rational discussion and have substantially more than a basic understanding of science!!
What we have is a bunch of people who have chosen to infer that the measured differences aren't audible...
However, those inferences are based on the results of experiments that were devised and carried out to test different things under different conditions. ....
Continuing on from the previous point: The same is (self-evidently) true of R2R vs D-S DACS. For example, if we take a non-functioning D-S DAC and compare it with a fully functioning R2R DAC, I would assert "most people would notice an audible difference". According to your reasoning though, that assertion would not be true. I would have to provide a scientific study that specifically tested a non-functioning D-S DAC vs a fully functioning R2R DAC, otherwise I'm just making an "inference" (which is/could be wrong), and of course I can't provide such a scientific study because it would be nonsense/pointless. So there we have it, apparently neither I nor science could make such an assertion.

The hole in your understanding and logic/reasoning (which has been pointed out previously but you continue to ignore!), is that most/all scientific hearing threshold studies are "devised and carried out" specifically for the purpose of being used for "inference"! IE. The most optimal conditions/circumstances are used to determine a hearing threshold, specifically for the purpose of being able to "infer" that under any other conditions, which by definition must be other than optimal, will not exceed the established threshold. Again, this should be self-evident, to any rational person with a basic understanding of science! Clearly, we cannot test even one human being's threshold with every piece of music and every combination of reproduction equipment, let alone a significant sample size. So the idea of an optimal test signal/conditions is the only rational approach, if one wants to work out how/why things work for everyone (rather than just one thing for one person), which of course is the whole point of science! How many times, in how many different threads, are we going to have to restate this basic scientific principle of threshold tests?

So now what, isn't it time for another non-analogous analogy? How about some more semantics or misrepresentations which deflect from scientific facts/axioms or what if we gaffer tape an acorn to an ICBM, so we can scientifically state that "obviously an Oak tree is the fastest flying living thing"?

G
 
Aug 22, 2019 at 8:05 AM Post #1,083 of 1,344
Falling objects do accelerate, but eventually the acceleration slows or stops due to the effect of other forces. In atmosphere, rate of fall is usually thresholded by air resistance limitations driven by the coefficient of drag.

Which of course is why we should all be using oxygen free cables. Without oxygen to create atmospheric resistance, there's no drag coefficient and therefore the analogue signal is free to accelerate towards your speakers, due to your speakers' gravity. If you're an audiophile with expensive OFC cables and massive speakers (which obviously have more gravity than cheap/lightweight consumer speakers), then you can clearly hear that the music is just a tad faster. Honestly, trust me, I'm an engineer! :)

G
 
Aug 22, 2019 at 8:13 AM Post #1,084 of 1,344
Which of course is why we should all be using oxygen free cables. Without oxygen to create atmospheric resistance, there's no drag coefficient and therefore the analogue signal is free to accelerate towards your speakers, due to your speakers' gravity. If you're an audiophile with expensive OFC cables and massive speakers (which obviously have more gravity than cheap/lightweight consumer speakers), then you can clearly hear that the music is just a tad faster. Honestly, trust me, I'm an engineer! :)

G

Well played.

However...

I'm going to add that to my Google search terms list to see how long it takes for you to be quoted by a cable believer or manufacturer!
 
Aug 22, 2019 at 8:35 AM Post #1,085 of 1,344
[1] Well played.
[2] However... I'm going to add that to my Google search terms list to see how long it takes for you to be quoted by a cable believer or manufacturer!

1. Thanks.
2. Ah, but the beauty of it is that it can also by used by audiophiles/manufacturers to scientifically justify massive speakers, small speakers with some added mass or even a 3rd party product like an "audiophile brick", which you can bungee strap to your existing speakers to give them more mass/gravity! This of course would eventually lead to an "audiophile grade" bungee strap. The possibilities are almost endless ... I'm an undiscovered genius!

G
 
Aug 22, 2019 at 8:46 AM Post #1,086 of 1,344
Then I'd suggest a blind test to see if an audible different even exists. It sounds like it's expectation bias. If it's manufacturing tolerances, some testing of samples would reveal that. Usually when people don't do the obvious tests, it's because they know there really isn't a difference in their heart of hearts.

Exactly. It doesn't matter if we do not know what is audible theoretically. If it cannot be discerned using blinded ABX testing then for all intent and purposes, it probably doesn't matter.

One question though (seriously), if gravity accelerates why do objects fall at a constant rate?

Because air friction.
 
Aug 22, 2019 at 9:01 AM Post #1,087 of 1,344
1. Thanks.
2. Ah, but the beauty of it is that it can also by used by audiophiles/manufacturers to scientifically justify massive speakers, small speakers with some added mass or even a 3rd party product like an "audiophile brick", which you can bungee strap to your existing speakers to give them more mass/gravity! This of course would eventually lead to an "audiophile grade" bungee strap. The possibilities are almost endless ... I'm an undiscovered genius!

G


I anxiously await the launch of gregaudio.com and the interesting products you will be selling!
 
Aug 22, 2019 at 9:39 AM Post #1,088 of 1,344
I agree.... and that makes perfect sense.

So, once and for all, would someone please publish the results of an ACTUAL TEST where a bunch of both R2R and D-S DACs, both with excellent and similar performance specifications, WERE ACTUALLY COMPARED DIRECTLY, by a significant number of test subjects, under properly controlled test conditions, to see if there was an audible difference or not.

- NOT a claim that "the differences we can measure are so small that they must be inaudible"....
- NOT a claim that "since we believe that both are audibly perfect there cannot possibly be an audible difference"....
- And NOT a claim that "since nobody has shown a difference to exist, we should all assume there isn't one"....

I am personally not aware of such a test ever having been conducted (using a reasonable number of DACs, test material, and test subjects).
And I am quite certain that I have personally never seen the results of such a test published.
All I've ever seen on that particular question is a bunch of anecdotal claims and inferred guesses in either direction
(I would hope that we can all agree that the fact that something simply hasn't been tested does not constitute proof that it's impossible.)
(And, no, I do not consider the fact that one or two people "couldn't hear any difference", which happens to confirm their existing expectations, to be "proof".)

So.....

If anyone actually has the results of such a test - then that would seem to be relevant to the discussion...
Otherwise, it might be interesting to discuss how such a test could be structured to best find out, while avoiding the mistakes so often seen in other audio perception tests...
(And, failing either of those, all we're left with is really just opinions and philosophy... )

Exactly. It doesn't matter if we do not know what is audible theoretically. If it cannot be discerned using blinded ABX testing then for all intent and purposes, it probably doesn't matter.



Because air friction.
 
Aug 22, 2019 at 10:32 AM Post #1,089 of 1,344
I do want to address a few things specifically to Dogmatrix here....

While it makes sense at one level that it should be difficult to sell any audio product these days with "audible noise or distortion"... the reality is actually the opposite in much of the audiophile market. Specifically when it comes to electronics, any two products that were "audibly perfect" would perforce sound exactly the same. The reality is that, while many audiophile products are sold based on other distinctions, real or imagined, many do in fact sound quite different from each other. In some cases these differences are due to obvious differences in well-known characteristics like noise and distortion. Some of these differences may be unintentional or incidental - for example, no speaker is audibly perfect, but most speaker manufacturers have a "house sound". This is simply a way of saying that, accepting that perfection is out of reach, their designers and their customers have agreed to prefer certain flaws in deference to others. (There is no such thing as a perfectly flat speaker. So, accepting that, would you prefer a small bump here or a slight dip there? And, do you prefer your speakers a little bright or a little laid back?) In other cases, the designers may have deliberately chosen to make their product sound different, so there is some way to differentiate it from other similar products. (It's much simpler to convince potential customers that your product "sounds better" if there is a clearly audible difference you can demonstrate.)

To pick the example of the DAC you mentioned - one of the NOS DACs from Metrum....

There is a very well known design constraint on NOS DACs. In order for a DAC to reproduce 16/44k digital audio content properly, without using oversampling, it must include a filter which nominally passes the entire audio frequency band with a flat frequency response, but strongly attenuates frequencies above 20 kHz, to eliminate spurious images. Such a filter is difficult to design and manufacture and involves some serious compromises. (The main reason why oversampling is so prevalent in modern DACs is that it avoids this issue.) Therefore, when designing an oversampling DAC, the designer must either accept a significant deviation from a flat frequency response inside the audio band, or accept other serious compromises.

I owned a Metrum Octave for a while....

When playing 16/44k content, its frequency response is -3 dB at 20 kHz, which is a significant and audible high frequency roll-off.
(I also happen to have access to an AP analyzer... and the THD wasn't especially low either...)
Therefore, while that DAC was audibly quite different, and many people rate it as "sounding very nice"...
There are obvious measured differences that may well account for that audible difference.

The part about manufacturing tolerances is a bit of a red herring... based on a bit of truth...
(It's not that R2R DACs inherently have better manufacturing tolerances... but that they require them in order to deliver even acceptable performance.)

In order to design an R2R DAC, and achieve reasonably good performance measurements, certain parts must be specified with extreme accuracy.
(Even a tiny mismatch in the resistor values in the ladder network will result in significant distortion and nonlinearity.)
From an engineering perspective, one of the benefits of the D-S DAC topology is that it can achieve similar or better performance using less accurate lower cost parts.
In technical terms - the D-S topology is "largely immune to inaccuracies that would have a major effect on an equivalent R2R design".
(In other words, in order to build an R2R DAC that works equally well, you must build it out of MUCH more precise and MUCH more expensive parts than a D-S DAC.)
(In the vernacular.... R2R DACs are very fussy, if you want even decent performance, but you can make a D-S DAC using really cheap parts, and it will still work very very well.)

Imagine a design for a paper clip which HAD to be made out of platinum to work as well as - but not better than - the cheap steel one you're using now.
Would you describe that platinum paper clip as "sophisticated" or "a terrible waste of money"?

As it turns out, while D-S DACs, for a given cost, perform FAR better than R2R DACs, there are some minor ways in which R2R DACs do deliver superior performance.
Outside of audiophile circles, R2R DACs are still often used in instrumentation and video applications...
However, both of those are applications where very high operating speed and very rapid settling times are critical requirements...
And where very good linearity, low noise, and low distortion, are less critical...
A video DAC must operate at incredibly high speeds... but linearity of 10-12 bits is usually adequate.
In contrast, an audio DAC operates at relatively low speed, but its linearity and noise floor are critical.
In other words, most engineers agree that R2R DACs work much better for video, but that D-S DACs are superior for audio.
And you'll see this stated in many engineering texts - and the spec sheets for many DAC chips.
(The reason so many R2R audio DACs are using "instrumentation DAC chips" is that their manufacturers DO NOT recommend using those chips for audio applications!)

An R2R video DAC, that can operate at hundreds of mHz, with linearity of 10-12 bits, can be had for a few $$$.
(And there are probably a handful of them in your TV or video recorder.)
A D-S DAC with those specs would cost a small fortune - if it could be had at all.

HOWEVER, an D-S DAC that can operate at 384k, with better than 24 bit linearity, costs only a few dollars.
(Which makes it a much better match for the requirements of audio equipment.)

They were sinad measurements specifically so well below auditory perception , it would be hard to sell a dac these days with audible noise or distortion . My understanding is the difficulty is not in the concept of r2r but manufacturing tolerance .
While inaudible factors are an unfair criticism of a product in an audio market free market competition means they are non the less a factor in a products success or failure .
 
Aug 22, 2019 at 11:37 AM Post #1,090 of 1,344
So, once and for all, would someone please publish the results of an ACTUAL TEST where a bunch of both R2R and D-S DACs ...

Whoops, looks like I missed the most common/obvious one, silly rabbit:

"So now what, isn't it time for another non-analogous analogy? How about some more semantics or misrepresentations which deflect from scientific facts/axioms or what if we gaffer tape an acorn to an ICBM, so we can scientifically state that "obviously an Oak tree is the fastest flying living thing"?" - Or, how about simply ignore the responses/refutations and just keep repeating the same fallacy?

G
 
Aug 22, 2019 at 12:02 PM Post #1,091 of 1,344
What about Schiit audio they make multibit and sigma delta dacs and they are into blind tests , I recall they tested some turntable carts recently and are planning a blind test of some valve tubes soon .

I can see how turntable cartridges and tube amps might sound different. I don't know why anyone would make a colored DAC though. And I don't see any reason why a DAC that measured as audibly transparent wouldn't be audibly transparent in a blind listening test.

If someone isn't aware of a controlled test comparing specific types of DACs, the best thing for them to do is to do one themselves. I've done a lot of listening tests myself and it isn't that hard. In all of the stuff I've compared, I have yet to see any reason to expect a difference from the specs, and I haven't found any differences in my tests. Audibly transparent should be audibly transparent, unless there is some sort of defect in design or manufacture. It's good to double check while you are still in the return window though.
 
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Aug 22, 2019 at 2:46 PM Post #1,092 of 1,344
I agree...

And I would personally be quite satisfied to base my conclusions on the results of my experiences.
Of course, we should each expect any such results to be considered to be "anecdotal data" by everyone else.
(Unless we conduct a properly designed, fully documented, and statistically significant series of proper tests.)

Incidentally, here at Emotiva where I work, we have quite a few of the latest Audio Precision test sets...
And they are able to perform and document a very long list of industry standard tests quite accurately...
However, on that entire list, there is not a single test which I have ever seen that produces a result of "audibly transparent"...

So, if you have found a definitive, repeatable, widely accepted test for "audibly transparent", we'd all love to hear about it.
Or do you just have a personal opinion about a certain set of specifications which you believe will show that something is audibly transparent?
If so, at the very least, we'd like to hear precisely how you define meaning of that term.

I can see how turntable cartridges and tube amps might sound different. I don't know why anyone would make a colored DAC though. And I don't see any reason why a DAC that measured as audibly transparent wouldn't be audibly transparent in a blind listening test.

If someone isn't aware of a controlled test comparing specific types of DACs, the best thing for them to do is to do one themselves. I've done a lot of listening tests myself and it isn't that hard. In all of the stuff I've compared, I have yet to see any reason to expect a difference from the specs, and I haven't found any differences in my tests. Audibly transparent should be audibly transparent, unless there is some sort of defect in design or manufacture. It's good to double check while you are still in the return window though.
 
Aug 22, 2019 at 3:30 PM Post #1,093 of 1,344
What about Schiit audio they make multibit and sigma delta dacs and they are into blind tests , I recall they tested some turntable carts recently and are planning a blind test of some valve tubes soon .
we had the honor of a visit on this very topic when some of us thought that their DACs with the "multibit" option would be a good start to try and limit external factors beside the crucial converter part. some stuff were said, but the point I remember most was that taking a nice delta sigma chip and following the advised circuitry around it, was simple enough and led to something that would measure well. and baldr's view on this was something along the line of "where's the fun in that?"(I'm probably paraphrasing but that was the idea).
and that's one of the most relatable reasons I've seen to date. not necessarily compelling for the consumer, but if I was an engineer with some serious know how, I probably wouldn't want to just be part of the same virtual assembly line, doing the electronic version of building IKEA furniture in my own office and then trying to sell that.
 
Aug 22, 2019 at 3:34 PM Post #1,094 of 1,344
I've been asking for a couple of years now for someone to provide proof of an amp or DAC that sounds different in its intended use. So far, everyone says such a thing exists, but the only things they can point to are units that measure a little bit worse (but still well within the range of audible transparency), and models that have been out of production for more than a decade. I'm open to the possibility that there is an amp or DAC that sounds different, and I'm willing to contribute time trying to verify that. But no one has stepped up to the plate. I think that says something about the rarity of this bird.

Every single DAC, DAP, player or amp that I've ever bought is audibly transparent. I test every one when I get it to make sure. That's dozens of things from a high end DAC/amp down to a $40 Walmart DVD player... they all sound the same.
 
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Aug 22, 2019 at 6:43 PM Post #1,095 of 1,344
I do want to address a few things specifically to Dogmatrix here....

While it makes sense at one level that it should be difficult to sell any audio product these days with "audible noise or distortion"... the reality is actually the opposite in much of the audiophile market. Specifically when it comes to electronics, any two products that were "audibly perfect" would perforce sound exactly the same. The reality is that, while many audiophile products are sold based on other distinctions, real or imagined, many do in fact sound quite different from each other. In some cases these differences are due to obvious differences in well-known characteristics like noise and distortion. Some of these differences may be unintentional or incidental - for example, no speaker is audibly perfect, but most speaker manufacturers have a "house sound". This is simply a way of saying that, accepting that perfection is out of reach, their designers and their customers have agreed to prefer certain flaws in deference to others. (There is no such thing as a perfectly flat speaker. So, accepting that, would you prefer a small bump here or a slight dip there? And, do you prefer your speakers a little bright or a little laid back?) In other cases, the designers may have deliberately chosen to make their product sound different, so there is some way to differentiate it from other similar products. (It's much simpler to convince potential customers that your product "sounds better" if there is a clearly audible difference you can demonstrate.)

Very good point , I had discounted shall we say agreeable distortion . Harmonic distortion in tube amplifiers would be another example . Not convinced on agreeable noise since I am a black background type but I would be open to consider noise as agreeable coloration perhaps .
Tolerance I was referring to was in fact the sourcing and testing of suitably matched resistors as opposed to manufacturing of the unit as a whole . I have some personal experience of this and know it is difficult to find manufacturers that use tight enough tolerance in the first place and mind numbingly tedious to test and match them (resistors not manufacturers).
I am well aware of the roll off character in nos dacs but would hesitate to say 20khz is audible certainly not in my case .
 

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