[zhubajie]

Quote:

Oook. We've run-very- far away from the original question. But the point about your brain not getting the usual cues for positioning is the key- the brain expects and uses the mixing of the channels and phase differences to draw a spacial picture. You have none of that with headphones. Each brain will interpret the "unnatural" lack of channel mixing differently, perhaps explaining your funky positioning-interpretation. 
 
So. You can make the cues artificially by using DSP. That's what the Dolby Headphone DSP is for. It's not perfect, but it's pretty decent. I use it for gaming, and it can be creepy good for that. 
 
Also.. Linky. That's what 3D positioning is all about. Listen with headphones, of course. This creation requires specialised microphones (synthetic head) or sophisticated DSP to make. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8IXm6SuUigI
 
Listen to that. Do it now. And CLOSE YOUR EYES when doing so. 
 
Crossfeed: Foobar plugins. Also, Fidelia with the DSP option. Fidelia with DSP is what I use for music, and Dolby Headphone for games.

Thanks for your reply.
 
1. Indeed. That's what I understand from all the reading I did and some of the replies I got.
    I, and the people I let do this test too, however all experience the frontal sound as coming from above the forehead.
    Never right from in front of me. And it's that what I want to find out now.
    There are variations but so far I haven't heard of anyone who said "I clearly hear the sound coming from the front".
 
2. Yeah, I read about that but I'm into portable audio mostly so that won't help.
    At home I have my 5.1 set and normal stereo set.
 
3. Yeah, I have loads of these files. They are binaural. This is a very good one.
    However, here too the sound in the front is very good but it's still above the forehead and not right in front of you.
 
There must be a reason why that is.
It's not about the brain having problems distinguishing between front and rear. Otherwise there would be people that hear everything coming from the front very detailed but having problems with detail in the rear and hearing it as if the sound is above the back of their head.
 
So the quest goes on.

 

[zhubajie]

Quote:

The Stax behemoth: http://www.head-fi.org/a/stax-sr-007-omega-ii-a-review-after-4-years-of-ownership-darth-nuts-epic-review
 
Also, I want to tell you something. Music like binaural music is made with the average ear in mind, in other words based on an average HRTF (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Head-related_transfer_function). If your HRTF deviates from the norm, you could experience the issues you... experience. The problem might be unique to you (or the extend of the problem, whatever).

I finally found some time to do some reading on the two links you gave me and, though I'm by no means finished.. it's quite a read, I think those will give me the answer to my quest(ions).
Hardware, head shape, how the music is produced and more... it all makes a difference. A lot to chew on for a rookie Head-Fi'er but definitely worth it methinks.
 
Dart Nut's review is indeed epic and I think both posts are a must read for every Head-Fi'er.
 
Edit : I just got a message that my question was forwarded to a specialist at this field at the academical hospital I work at. I am eager to hear what he has to say as he might not have the Head-Fi gene and give a scientific view on it.

 

[zhubajie]

Shiver me timbers! The psychological factor might also be even bigger than I thought...
 
I have been listening to (mostly non-binaural) music all day using an IEM and earbud and the same player I had that "stage is behind me" effect with before (I had that effect with all headphones/players before).
All day I have experienced the sound as coming from the "front"!
That "front" is still above my forehead and not right in front of me, mind you, but that is explained in Darth Nut's review.
 
Could it be I can influence that? I must meditate and thing wide and frontal thoughts! Ohmmmmmm!

 

[KStreetSounds]

I just stumbled upon this thread and am wondering if anyone ever came up with a good answer?
 
The OP isn't crazy... I experience this phenomenon very intensely and it has nothing to do with quality of the hardware.  I find the effect is most significant with Binaural recordings.  I literally find myself looking up and to the left or right, like the musician is standing on a raised platform right behind my shoulder. It happens all the time.

 

[Hitec]

If that is the case, I am guessing that it is because of the darke signature of most headphones in comparison the some speakers. The instruments sound louder than some vocals making you feel like you are behind the stage. To test this if it's true, EQ and boots the Frequency at around 16KHz, 6-8KHz.

Billson

'cause the speaker is on your ear.  I would rather for the ear to detect it on my ear than in front of me.  I know then that my ears are working correctly.  I wouldn't mind though
if I knew that artificial processing was making me think that the imaging was out in front of me.  

 

[Bubblejuice]

  Shiver me timbers! The psychological factor might also be even bigger than I thought...
 
I have been listening to (mostly non-binaural) music all day using an IEM and earbud and the same player I had that "stage is behind me" effect with before (I had that effect with all headphones/players before).
All day I have experienced the sound as coming from the "front"!
That "front" is still above my forehead and not right in front of me, mind you, but that is explained in Darth Nut's review.
 
Could it be I can influence that? I must meditate and thing wide and frontal thoughts! Ohmmmmmm!

Did you ever get the response you were waiting for?
 
I'd never had this issue before until I started getting into Hifi audio. I hear the same thing, like my back is facing the stage.
Also, the vocals started from in front of me, and moved above my forehead, and now they are dead center above my head.
 
I get this phenomenon with all of my headphones, LCD-2f, MH40s, B&O H6, HD650, B&O H3, DT770 Pro, etc. I run them either from the source using youtube or spotify on my phone or PC, or (like for my LCD-2f) I run them off of my O2 amp.
 
However, i've experienced this with more gear than just mine. I even took my LCD-2s to a local Hi-fi store and tried them with their own gear and I got the same thing. Like you, Binaural tracks still sound mostly behind me.. it's weird and I can't find any info about it. It seems like most people don't have this issue. I don't know why it suddenly started happening to me, hopefully you got an answer. 
 
p.s. When I try to imagine the vocals in front of me, it works... but just for the intrument/vocals i'm focusing on, and the soundstage shrinks. As in, they may feel a few feet a way from me when they are behind me, but when I try to imagine them in front, they are only an inch or two away from me. Lol i'm in AZ, so the Burial Ground may be the case this time lmao

 

[gunwale]

I new to headphone and I have the same problem too.
 
I think most music recordings or even movies sounded that way on headphones regardless of types and the open back are the worst.
 
Search "Blind listening test #2 - bluetooth large premium class" on youtube and compare the binaural recording with the original sound and then try to compare crossfeed + orignal sound with the binaural recording. (for the binaural speaker recording, the vocal sounded above the head though instead of center)
 
Search "Klipsch RP-160M Bookshelf Speakers Sound Demo (Pop)" on youtube and I think this is actually dead center. (like mono)
 
Watch something like "Fast & Furious 8 - Official Trailer 1 (Universal Pictures) HD" on youtube and most of the voices feels like coming from side and behind (example 4th to 5th seconds)
 
Another good way to test is to play a movie like on pot player (or similar player), press f5 and test through the speaker settings *mono (dead center), stereo, surround, same as input)
 
I cant really watch a full length movie with my 400i without crossfeed or virtual surround sound. I get fatigue really quickly.

 

[zhubajie]

<SRY, delete this>

 

[zhubajie]

  Did you ever get the response you were waiting for?
 
I'd never had this issue before until I started getting into Hifi audio. I hear the same thing, like my back is facing the stage.
Also, the vocals started from in front of me, and moved above my forehead, and now they are dead center above my head.
 
I get this phenomenon with all of my headphones, LCD-2f, MH40s, B&O H6, HD650, B&O H3, DT770 Pro, etc. I run them either from the source using youtube or spotify on my phone or PC, or (like for my LCD-2f) I run them off of my O2 amp.
 
However, i've experienced this with more gear than just mine. I even took my LCD-2s to a local Hi-fi store and tried them with their own gear and I got the same thing. Like you, Binaural tracks still sound mostly behind me.. it's weird and I can't find any info about it. It seems like most people don't have this issue. I don't know why it suddenly started happening to me, hopefully you got an answer. 
 
p.s. When I try to imagine the vocals in front of me, it works... but just for the intrument/vocals i'm focusing on, and the soundstage shrinks. As in, they may feel a few feet a way from me when they are behind me, but when I try to imagine them in front, they are only an inch or two away from me. Lol i'm in AZ, so the Burial Ground may be the case this time lmao

Hi Bubblejuice,
 
>> Did you ever get the response you were waiting for?
 
Nope. I emailed several sources and even an audiologist, in the Medical Center where I work, but only got a response from the audiologist stating that he didn't have the time to go in to this.
 
I eventually gave up and didn't think about it anymore. I never listen to binaural stuff anymore anyway.
I do know, however, know that the direction of the nozzle of the IEM's can have a big influence and that the mind can play tricks on you (check out the "burn in" discussion)
 
So sorry I can't help you..

 

[Bubblejuice]

  Hi Bubblejuice,
 
>> Did you ever get the response you were waiting for?
 
Nope. I emailed several sources and even an audiologist, in the Medical Center where I work, but only got a response from the audiologist stating that he didn't have the time to go in to this.
 
I eventually gave up and didn't think about it anymore. I never listen to binaural stuff anymore anyway.
I do know, however, know that the direction of the nozzle of the IEM's can have a big influence and that the mind can play tricks on you (check out the "burn in" discussion)
 
So sorry I can't help you..

It's all good! It's interesting the audiologist didn't take interest in the subject. It's pretty curious issue.
 
Directional queues in something like video games aren't affected. Just music, and sometimes videos. Maybe it has something to do with the way computers process stereo sound? This doesn't seem to affect too many people, but it seems like it affects enough to consider trying to find an answer.

 

[moosegang]

wow.
 
this is exactly the question i've been asking myself the past few days. Crazy that a few others were thinking the same thing and dug up this old thread.
 
If anyone has any other theories on this we would be definitely interested to hear them.

 

[Peter Steier]

I am no audiophile (sorry), and probably have only limited sound preception, but I am a scientist and think I can contribute to this topic.

It seems to be quite common that sound from headphones seems to come from behind; I have done some quick review of scientific acoustics publications on this topic, and this seems to be a quite notorious topic. I have some experience with this kind of writing, and thus I think I can read a little between the lines: I have the impression nobody knows why this is the case, no computer simulation can reliably produce sound which comes from a certain spot. If I am wrong, and you are an expert who knows better, please correct me, and send me appropriate citations or a link to an binaural file which sounds 2 m straight in front of my nose.

With a little computer programming I could easily simulate sound moving BEHIND my head from left to right and back, by changing the time delay between the signals and the volume. However, cross-mixing and some arbitrary echoes did not result in any sound coming from the front. I used cheap earplugs, and some of the publications argued that you need Ultra-HIHIFI equipment to produce this effect, but I have the feeling that this rather is an excuse than the real reason. I think that the real reason has yet to be discovered, and once it is, 3D sound will be easily reproduced by the cheapest equipment.

Some of the reasons mentioned above or in the publications can be excluded. I can so easily distinguish whether my wife snaps her fingers in front or behind my head if my eyes are closed, that any such proposition sound ridiculous. The visual aids are not needed. It might be that the outer ears modulate the sound such that the brain can distinguish front and back, but this cannot be very critical, because my senso for direction remains functional even if I deform my ears to a painful level. Some of the binaurals on youtube were made with dummy heads with realistic silicone ears and microphones inside, thus I would expect that they should at least lead to a slightly good representation of front and back - they don't.

My suggestion is that not only the sound going through the ear canal to the inner ear plays a role in directional hearing, but maybe bone conduction or sound going through mouth and nose into the eustachian tube. Not my field of science, but I think there is still some research to do.

It would really help that somebody who knows a sound file which with ear buds appears to come from the front points it out.

 

[zhubajie]

I am no audiophile (sorry), and probably have only limited sound preception, but I am a scientist and think I can contribute to this topic.

It seems to be quite common that sound from headphones seems to come from behind; I have done some quick review of scientific acoustics publications on this topic, and this seems to be a quite notorious topic. I have some experience with this kind of writing, and thus I think I can read a little between the lines: I have the impression nobody knows why this is the case, no computer simulation can reliably produce sound which comes from a certain spot. If I am wrong, and you are an expert who knows better, please correct me, and send me appropriate citations or a link to an binaural file which sounds 2 m straight in front of my nose.

With a little computer programming I could easily simulate sound moving BEHIND my head from left to right and back, by changing the time delay between the signals and the volume. However, cross-mixing and some arbitrary echoes did not result in any sound coming from the front. I used cheap earplugs, and some of the publications argued that you need Ultra-HIHIFI equipment to produce this effect, but I have the feeling that this rather is an excuse than the real reason. I think that the real reason has yet to be discovered, and once it is, 3D sound will be easily reproduced by the cheapest equipment.

Some of the reasons mentioned above or in the publications can be excluded. I can so easily distinguish whether my wife snaps her fingers in front or behind my head if my eyes are closed, that any such proposition sound ridiculous. The visual aids are not needed. It might be that the outer ears modulate the sound such that the brain can distinguish front and back, but this cannot be very critical, because my senso for direction remains functional even if I deform my ears to a painful level. Some of the binaurals on youtube were made with dummy heads with realistic silicone ears and microphones inside, thus I would expect that they should at least lead to a slightly good representation of front and back - they don't.

My suggestion is that not only the sound going through the ear canal to the inner ear plays a role in directional hearing, but maybe bone conduction or sound going through mouth and nose into the eustachian tube. Not my field of science, but I think there is still some research to do.

It would really help that somebody who knows a sound file which with ear buds appears to come from the front points it out.

Hi Peter,

Glad you responded to this old topic.
Too bad you weren't able to answer the question but the information is very useful.
The audiologists in the medicxal center where I work (AMC, Amsterdam, The Netherlands) found it interesting but clearly not interesting enough to spend some time on it.
I'm sure at some point in time someone will offer a clear answer.
I hope I'm still alive by then

Thanks again for the reply and the information.

 

[Peter Steier]

I'm sure at some point in time someone will offer a clear answer.

It would speed up everyting if somebody of the contributors above would send a link to the binaural file straight in front of his/her nose ... maybe something is just wrong with my ears.