[gLer]

The ABX-ing FLAC vs. 320 stuff was a big eye-opener for me. At the beginning, I may as well have been guessing. Over hours and hours of peeling my ears to pick through tracks for the smallest stuff, though, that rate steadily went up. It's still very dependent on other factors like my mood, but I do feel that my ability to pick up on nuances like micro-dynamics has gotten better. Even then, there are people who seem to be even better than me at it with zero practice! That last part kind of stings, but it's also a good reminder that none of this is really a competition

Very succinct point. As an occasional reviewer myself, there's a huge difference between my ABX-ing IEMs with a familiar track list, and me kicking back and discovering new music or simply enjoying old favourites. Oftentimes the very act of side-by-side comparions amplifies both 'flaws' and 'strengths', and after a while, if I'm not careful, I can get hypercritical about the smallest nuance.

We should keep in mind that the reviewing process, at least for me, is not the same as listening to music for enjoyment. It's a focused, intense exercise, and for me usually ends in relief that I can go back to enjoying my music again without harping on every hiss, or decay, or occasional zing.

 

[mashuto]

Haha, yes, I agree this is a thing. It's not limited to justifying expensive purchases, though. In general, there's a pressure to conform and to not be the odd one out.

True. I should also add that in all my experience with this hobby, from 15 dollar iems up to 2000 dollar iems, I have encountered very very very few that I truly thought were "bad" by any objective standard.

So experience has told me that things like technicalities are often significantly less important than reading the general consensus on this forum would lead people to believe. Tonality/tuning are what I have experienced as the most important of we are going back enjoyment as the metric here. And because of how subjective that is, it makes it a lot easier to understand how some can enjoy iems that others think are terrible.

I've also seen one of your comments where you were wondering about whether some people are exaggerating or just making things up.

I do think there's a ton of hyperbole thrown around in this hobby. Some of it by necessity. Trying to describe audio in words is difficult especially when it comes to some of the more nebulous concepts we all try to describe about sound. Things that are hard enough to perceive on their own, but otherwise describing tiny nuances without exaggeration would likely be difficult or impossible. So I don't necessarily mind that part as much, it's just that you get situations where it becomes hard to truly judge how "good" something is because the exaggeration might make it sound miles and miles ahead when in reality differences are likely much smaller.

On making things up... Well I don't think people are necessarily lying. But there are things that I have either never experienced myself or have a hard time believing, so I do think there is some level of self convincing going on. But again, it could just be that there are nuances I either don't pick up... Or quite possibly, that they are just not important to me, especially again when determining enjoyment, and more importantly, value or worth.

There's probably plenty of people out there with hearing like yours. And if you really want to get better at hearing this stuff, you likely can train your ears to better pick up nuance.

Yea, whether is a genuine inability to hear the nuance or just not registering some of it due to it not really affecting my enjoyment, it's actually not a huge deal to me. It does make it a little hard to participate here sometimes, and can be a turn off (I'm kinda of on the verge of being ready to cash out of this hobby so to speak). But overall, enjoyment has always been my number 1 goal, and some of that nuance just really isn't important to me personally. No real desire either to train myself to hear it. And I think for my sanity and wallet, that's probably for the best.

I do enjoy my higher end stuff that I have, but a lot of that really comes down to feeling, and my personal rationalization is that I'm paying more for stuff that has been tuned well or interestingly by companies who have that expertise.

Anyways, probably enough said from me on these topics. Thanks for the discussion. Everyone else please continue your normal programming, and precog I'll be looking forward to whatever you review next.

 

[NewEve]

True. I should also add that in all my experience with this hobby, from 15 dollar iems up to 2000 dollar iems, I have encountered very very very few that I truly thought were "bad" by any objective standard.

So experience has told me that things like technicalities are often significantly less important than reading the general consensus on this forum would lead people to believe. Tonality/tuning are what I have experienced as the most important of we are going back enjoyment as the metric here. And because of how subjective that is, it makes it a lot easier to understand how some can enjoy iems that others think are terrible.

I do think there's a ton of hyperbole thrown around in this hobby. Some of it by necessity. Trying to describe audio in words is difficult especially when it comes to some of the more nebulous concepts we all try to describe about sound. Things that are hard enough to perceive on their own, but otherwise describing tiny nuances without exaggeration would likely be difficult or impossible. So I don't necessarily mind that part as much, it's just that you get situations where it becomes hard to truly judge how "good" something is because the exaggeration might make it sound miles and miles ahead when in reality differences are likely much smaller.

On making things up... Well I don't think people are necessarily lying. But there are things that I have either never experienced myself or have a hard time believing, so I do think there is some level of self convincing going on. But again, it could just be that there are nuances I either don't pick up... Or quite possibly, that they are just not important to me, especially again when determining enjoyment, and more importantly, value or worth.


Yea, whether is a genuine inability to hear the nuance or just not registering some of it due to it not really affecting my enjoyment, it's actually not a huge deal to me. It does make it a little hard to participate here sometimes, and can be a turn off (I'm kinda of on the verge of being ready to cash out of this hobby so to speak). But overall, enjoyment has always been my number 1 goal, and some of that nuance just really isn't important to me personally. No real desire either to train myself to hear it. And I think for my sanity and wallet, that's probably for the best.

I do enjoy my higher end stuff that I have, but a lot of that really comes down to feeling, and my personal rationalization is that I'm paying more for stuff that has been tuned well or interestingly by companies who have that expertise.

Anyways, probably enough said from me on these topics. Thanks for the discussion. Everyone else please continue your normal programming, and precog I'll be looking forward to whatever you review next.

Lots of wisdom here.

The trifecta, as far as I am concerned is:

• Affordability: if you can’t afford it, you’re not going to be able to enjoy it, you’ll feel bad about it and perhaps even be forced to resell it…
• Balance/Pairing/Synergy/Tonality/Tuning: if you don’t like it at first, you’re never going to like it nor listen to it;
• Convenience/Usability: if they’re not comfortable or easy to use, forget it.

 

[Precogvision]

Ranking List Update

Viewing link: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1pUCELfWO-G33u82H42J8G_WX1odnOYBJsBNbVskQVt8/edit?usp=sharing

Hey all, this is something that I've been working on the last week or so. As most probably already know, I haven't maintained my list properly in months (okay, more like close to a year) and have mainly just been throwing out "bias" scores, so I figured it was time for a re-work. The list now has categories for tonality and technicalities (both with respective subcategories) and the bias score. These are then added for a final score on a 30/30/40 weighted percentage respectively. Please expect discrepancies in the list's current state and adjustments in the future. A lot of these rankings aren't set in stone and, especially due to the sheer number of IEMs I've heard, I wasn't able to fill in some of the entries completely (mostly the lower-tier stuff). Basically, some of these IEMs were so forgettable that I forgot exactly what I heard. The list also does not follow a normal distribution. The general shape is there (kind of), but there is a clear down curve. I'm hoping to implement a filter so viewers can sort by tone/tech too. Unfortunately, I have not found a way so that viewers can collapse/expand the tone/tech groups.

If you see something that looks off, please just bring it to my attention and I'll be happy to take a look at it. Pending whether I agree or not, I'll make the necessary changes. As usual, please don't get too caught-up in the rankings. One person's opinion only and all that, yada-yada

The following IEMs have also been added to the list, bringing it to a total of 150 IEMs:

• 64 Audio U6t
• Audeze iSine 20
• Aya Audio Siren
• Blon A8 Prometheus
• Campfire Holocene
• Campfire Honeydew
• Campfire Mammoth
• Campfire Satsuma
• Custom Art FIBAE Black
• iBasso IT01X
• Ikko Gems OH1s
• Kiwi Ears Orchestra
• KZ AST
• Moondrop Kanas Pro
• Moondrop Variations
• Oriolus Traillii
• qdc Uranus
• Tanchjim Hana 2021
• Tansio Mirai Spark
• Thieaudio Legacy 2

 

[Heo00911]

Ranking List Update

Viewing link: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1pUCELfWO-G33u82H42J8G_WX1odnOYBJsBNbVskQVt8/edit?usp=sharing

Hey all, this is something that I've been working on the last week or so. As most probably already know, I haven't maintained my list properly in months (okay, more like close to a year) and have mainly just been throwing out "bias" scores, so I figured it was time for a re-work. The list now has categories for tonality and technicalities (both with respective subcategories) and the bias score. These are then added for a final score on a 30/30/40 weighted percentage respectively. Please expect discrepancies in the list's current state and adjustments in the future. A lot of these rankings aren't set in stone and, especially due to the sheer number of IEMs I've heard, I wasn't able to fill in some of the entries completely (mostly the lower-tier stuff). Basically, some of these IEMs were so forgettable that I forgot exactly what I heard. The list also does not follow a normal distribution. The general shape is there (kind of), but there is a clear down curve. I'm hoping to implement a filter so viewers can sort by tone/tech too. Unfortunately, I have not found a way so that viewers can collapse/expand the tone/tech groups.

If you see something that looks off, please just bring it to my attention and I'll be happy to take a look at it. Pending whether I agree or not, I'll make the necessary changes. As usual, please don't get too caught-up in the rankings. One person's opinion only and all that, yada-yada

The following IEMs have also been added to the list, bringing it to a total of 150 IEMs:

• 64 Audio U6t
• Audeze iSine 20
• Aya Audio Siren
• Blon A8 Prometheus
• Campfire Holocene
• Campfire Honeydew
• Campfire Mammoth
• Campfire Satsuma
• Custom Art FIBAE Black
• iBasso IT01X
• Ikko Gems OH1s
• Kiwi Ears Orchestra
• KZ AST
• Moondrop Kanas Pro
• Moondrop Variations
• Oriolus Traillii
• qdc Uranus
• Tanchjim Hana 2021
• Tansio Mirai Spark
• Thieaudio Legacy 2

You know something is wrong when a mid-fi iem trade blows with a lot of flagships in terms of technical performance (The iSine 20). I guess that's the power of one trick pony and now I know why some tracks lack impact to my ears.

 

[Regrets415]

I do want to try out the U12T. I just upgraded from the Dusk to a used Z1R for $1100, thankfully I can wear the Z1R's with no discomfort while still getting a good seal.
A .7 score higher does pique my interest ngl haha

 

[Strifeff7]

I do want to try out the U12T. I just upgraded from the Dusk to a used Z1R for $1100, thankfully I can wear the Z1R's with no discomfort while still getting a good seal.
A .7 score higher does pique my interest ngl haha

is it a significant upgrade, from Dusk to Z1R ?

 

[RikudouGoku]

I'm hoping to implement a filter so viewers can sort by tone/tech too. Unfortunately, I have not found a way so that viewers can collapse/expand the tone/tech groups.

I think you can already sort by whatever column you want to though.

Just right click on the column you want to sort by (in this picture, the tech column) and then click on the "Sort A -> Z" option to sort from the smallest to biggest value or "Sort Z -> A"

 

[WAON303]

SE215: A relic of the past that should be avoided by any self-respecting audiophile who wants good sound.

Couldn't be more well said. Some people occasionally recommend the SE215 whenever I got to the r/HeadphoneAdvice sub reddit. It's pretty baffling to say the least, the SE215 hasn't been relevant since like 2013 and it wasn't a good set back then either.

For $6,600, I would buy a u12t, Z1R and a top tier DAP instead of spending thousands of $$$ on a set that is 3k at best. 7/10 rating doesn't cut it in the slightest when higher ranked sets are much cheaper.

 

[drspeter]

Hi @Precogvision , your new ranking looks awesome and very informative.
I remember that you compared killobuck IEMs and you personally prefer Andro2020 over Moondrop S8. And IIRC, andro2020 was regarded as higher technical performer as well. In your evaluation in the sheet, S8 has higher score than andro2020. Is it because of your preference change or you still personally reach to andro2020 more than S8?
I am interested in an all BA set with crystal clear sound signature with open space perception. Would you recommend andro2020 then?
Thanks for your reviews and impression.

 

[Precogvision]

Hi @Precogvision , your new ranking looks awesome and very informative.
I remember that you compared killobuck IEMs and you personally prefer Andro2020 over Moondrop S8. And IIRC, andro2020 was regarded as higher technical performer as well. In your evaluation in the sheet, S8 has higher score than andro2020. Is it because of your preference change or you still personally reach to andro2020 more than S8?
I am interested in an all BA set with crystal clear sound signature with open space perception. Would you recommend andro2020 then?
Thanks for your reviews and impression.

Thanks! Yes, I still prefer the Andro 2020. The S8 and Andro 2020 are comparable for technicalities (probably with a slight edge to Andromeda if it didn't have such poor dynamics), but S8 is scored higher because I think the tonality is slightly better, particularly in the lower-midrange.

About your requisites, I feel like the things you're asking for are something of a dichotomy. Most IEMs that sound open do not have crystal clear sound. They tend to be more diffused and hazy with their presentation. In this regard, the Andro 2020 does indeed sound quite open, but it is not the clearest sound. By contrast, the S8 sounds very clear, but is not as open in its presentation. If you wanted both, I think you'd honestly be better off looking at headphones. Something like the UM MEST Universal also comes to mind, but it's neither particularly coherent nor all BA.

 

[drspeter]

Thanks! Yes, I still prefer the Andro 2020. The S8 and Andro 2020 are comparable for technicalities (probably with a slight edge to Andromeda if it didn't have such poor dynamics), but S8 is scored higher because I think the tonality is slightly better, particularly in the lower-midrange.

About your requisites, I feel like the things you're asking for are something of a dichotomy. Most IEMs that sound open do not have crystal clear sound. They tend to be more diffused and hazy with their presentation. In this regard, the Andro 2020 does indeed sound quite open, but it is not the clearest sound. By contrast, the S8 sounds very clear, but is not as open in its presentation. If you wanted both, I think you'd honestly be better off looking at headphones. Something like the UM MEST Universal also comes to mind, but it's neither particularly coherent nor all BA.

Thanks for your reply. I am learning from your comment haha.
Actually, I have MEST MK1 and experiencing it seemed to ruin my taste for IEMs since any IEM that I've tried later resulted in narrow stage perception compared to the MEST. But if I have to choose between clarity and stage, I guess S8 wll be my choice, as it will be a nice set to have along with MEST (hopefully complementing each other)

 

[Heo00911]

It seems really hard for an iem to sound both detailed and dynamic, there're only 5 of them on the list and all are flagships, not to mention 3 of them are from 64 Audio!

 

[baskingshark]

SE215: A relic of the past that should be avoided by any self-respecting audiophile who wants good sound.

Couldn't be more well said. Some people occasionally recommend the SE215 whenever I got to the r/HeadphoneAdvice sub reddit. It's pretty baffling to say the least, the SE215 hasn't been relevant since like 2013 and it wasn't a good set back then either.

Yes I was using the Shure SE215 around 15+ years ago, back then it was decent for the price, but it hasn't aged well. Too muddy and veiled. Poor price to performance ratio compared to some CHIFI that are much cheaper but give way better performance. I can't believe it is still being sold as of today!

 

[Precogvision]

It seems really hard for an iem to sound both detailed and dynamic, there're only 5 of them on the list and all are flagships, not to mention 3 of them are from 64 Audio!

Agreed. Dynamics are very difficult to nail in an IEM, and most headphones I've heard don't have good dynamics either, at least compared to speakers. I have a lot of appreciation for an IEM that is able to get down dynamics to some degree.

In case anyone's wondering, the dynamic metric on the list is taking into account 1) macro-dynamics and 2) micro-dynamics. But none of the IEMs that are ranked high on the list for dynamics got there for their micro-dynamics. The 64 Audio stuff made it into top-tier status for their macro-dynamics. They sound very impactful to the way they ride dynamic swings and they simulate a good sense of energy and weight to the backdrop. The Annihilator has some compression in isolation - with which the bass sounds somewhat dry and the midrange has an upwards-compressed, "digital" characteristic - but it has an excellent sense of contrast and immediacy as a whole. Dunu Luna also has excellent dynamic contrast (although I probably need to give that a re-visit).

I do wonder how much of dynamics has to do with transient speed. The 64 Audio stuff, on the whole, tends toward the middle in terms of speed. I don't think they have as good dynamic contrast as the Annihilator and the Luna which skew quicker. They pick up the slack in terms of weight and body which I feel the Annihilator and Luna lack somewhat by comparison.