Precog's IEM Reviews & Impressions

Nov 27, 2021 at 7:05 AM Post #1,771 of 3,716
Driver timbre/sound comes from its FR as well as distortion and envelope (ADSR) per frequency IMO. What else could there be? I don't think there is anything else.

As for the beyond 10kHz measurements, I don't see why it is being constantly mentioned as being such a problem. It'll always be good enough for the purpose of comparing the measurements of differents transducing devices as long as these measurements are made by the same person using the same apparatus and methodology, etc... The fact that people have different ear anatomies, etc.. is completely irrelevant to it. Of course one should know the boundaries of its hearing range and discard all information that is beyond these boundaries. I can hear up to 14.5 kHz so anything up to this frequency is usefull even if post-10 kHz (why 10 kHz and not 9 or 11 or else btw?) measurement isn't likely to be objectively accurate.
 
Nov 27, 2021 at 8:01 AM Post #1,772 of 3,716
Furthermore, verifying these dips is next to impossible because measurement couplers aren't accurate after 10kHz. Incidentally, that's a question I've had for some time: Why aren't the couplers accurate after 10kHz? I think MadEconomist and Oratory1990 explained it pretty well. 1) There's obviously the inherent resonance peak, but 2) couplers are designed to mimic the canal of the human ear, and humans have high variability from person-to-person after 10kHz. Because of these limitations, I don't think we can ever know how something actually truly measures in the treble. And even if I run sine sweeps by ear, it's a reflection of what I hear; others won't necessarily hear a peak or trough where I hear it that high-up. For reasons like these (and the fact that funding studies requires massive $$$), I don't think we'll ever see the end of the debate on stuff like this. Luckily, I don't really have a vested interest in either side, and I'm happy to play the fence sitter. It's certainly fun learning about this stuff at least!
"IEC 60318-4:2010 describes an occluded-ear simulator intended for the measurement of insert earphones in the frequency range from 100 Hz to 10 000 Hz

Above 10 kHz the device does not simulate a human ear, but can be used as an acoustic coupler at additional frequencies up to 16 kHz. Below 100 Hz, the device has not been verified to simulate a human ear, but can be used as an acoustic coupler at additional frequencies down to 20 Hz."

https://webstore.iec.ch/publication/1445


The 60318-4 standard that these IEC711 clones most of us reviewers have, are only accurate from 100 Hz - 10 000 Hz.
 
Nov 27, 2021 at 2:04 PM Post #1,773 of 3,716
I imagine the ideal sets for coupler measurement accuracy could be the deeper insertion Etymotic ER series IEMs and the like. Coupler resonance and ear canal variations may be non-factors for them, since they place the nozzle so close to the ear drums themselves.
Yup, this is exactly it. The Etymotic IEMs yield the most consistent results for measurement accuracy; I think csglinux was running a tour a while back so people could calibrate their couplers with one.

"IEC 60318-4:2010 describes an occluded-ear simulator intended for the measurement of insert earphones in the frequency range from 100 Hz to 10 000 Hz

Above 10 kHz the device does not simulate a human ear, but can be used as an acoustic coupler at additional frequencies up to 16 kHz. Below 100 Hz, the device has not been verified to simulate a human ear, but can be used as an acoustic coupler at additional frequencies down to 20 Hz."

https://webstore.iec.ch/publication/1445


The 60318-4 standard that these IEC711 clones most of us reviewers have, are only accurate from 100 Hz - 10 000 Hz.

Didn't realize it was only certified from 100Hz up too. I guess that makes it even more difficult to reconcile differences between the ear and the coupler when it comes to BA versus DD bass.

Driver timbre/sound comes from its FR as well as distortion and envelope (ADSR) per frequency IMO. What else could there be? I don't think there is anything else.

As for the beyond 10kHz measurements, I don't see why it is being constantly mentioned as being such a problem. It'll always be good enough for the purpose of comparing the measurements of differents transducing devices as long as these measurements are made by the same person using the same apparatus and methodology, etc... The fact that people have different ear anatomies, etc.. is completely irrelevant to it. Of course one should know the boundaries of its hearing range and discard all information that is beyond these boundaries. I can hear up to 14.5 kHz so anything up to this frequency is usefull even if post-10 kHz (why 10 kHz and not 9 or 11 or else btw?) measurement isn't likely to be objectively accurate.

I think what you've mentioned above is the whole idea of the subjectivist debate! Scientifically, yes, timbre does come for those things. But what if there's something that we just haven't measured, or can't measure yet? That's also why over 10kHz becomes an issue if you're looking for the peaks and valleys which might be causing these differences of timbre. There is comparability between transducers in these regions as you said, but you'll never be able to attribute these peaks and valleys with certainty to what's causing timbral differences. Given perceptions of SPL over 10kHz also vary wildly, you might expect different people to hear different timbre altogether.

Something super interesting to me is the idea that some of this might be genetic. And not just when it comes to inherent peaks and valleys in a given person's hearing. This came to mind when someone mentioned there are people who experience frisson, or "chills" when listening to the music. Not everyone is able to - or at least not consistently - but people who do so frequently have been noted to have brains hardwired differently. In a similar vein, I remember in science class many years ago, they had us quickly taste a chemical strip (of what, I don't remember the name). Some people found it extremely bitter, while there were others who couldn't taste anything at all. What if the way people pick up distortion is different from person to person - ie. some people are able to pick up specific subsets of distortion better than others? By the way, these are all just ideas I'm throwing out for fun haha.
 
Nov 27, 2021 at 2:08 PM Post #1,774 of 3,716
Didn't realize it was only certified from 100Hz up too. I guess that makes it even more difficult to reconcile differences between the ear and the coupler when it comes to BA versus DD bass.
Could be another factor for this:
1638040030444.png

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/dun...ostatic-tweeters.956907/page-18#post-16407904
(the IEC60318-4 standard is from 2010.)


But what if there's something that we just haven't measured, or can't measure yet?
Precog into cable memes confirmed. :smirk:
 
Nov 27, 2021 at 7:31 PM Post #1,775 of 3,716
Yup, this is exactly it. The Etymotic IEMs yield the most consistent results for measurement accuracy; I think csglinux was running a tour a while back so people could calibrate their couplers with one.



Didn't realize it was only certified from 100Hz up too. I guess that makes it even more difficult to reconcile differences between the ear and the coupler when it comes to BA versus DD bass.



I think what you've mentioned above is the whole idea of the subjectivist debate! Scientifically, yes, timbre does come for those things. But what if there's something that we just haven't measured, or can't measure yet? That's also why over 10kHz becomes an issue if you're looking for the peaks and valleys which might be causing these differences of timbre. There is comparability between transducers in these regions as you said, but you'll never be able to attribute these peaks and valleys with certainty to what's causing timbral differences. Given perceptions of SPL over 10kHz also vary wildly, you might expect different people to hear different timbre altogether.

Something super interesting to me is the idea that some of this might be genetic. And not just when it comes to inherent peaks and valleys in a given person's hearing. This came to mind when someone mentioned there are people who experience frisson, or "chills" when listening to the music. Not everyone is able to - or at least not consistently - but people who do so frequently have been noted to have brains hardwired differently. In a similar vein, I remember in science class many years ago, they had us quickly taste a chemical strip (of what, I don't remember the name). Some people found it extremely bitter, while there were others who couldn't taste anything at all. What if the way people pick up distortion is different from person to person - ie. some people are able to pick up specific subsets of distortion better than others? By the way, these are all just ideas I'm throwing out for fun haha.

Yeah I think this hobby has an objective part (eg measurements and graphs), but also a subjective element, that makes it fun and brings us to the adage of "we all hear differently".

I mean, even for the same IEM and eartip and same source that is volume matched, we all have different degrees of hearing health, and different ear anatomy (which can affect resonances, pinna gain etc). Something can sound shouty to someone, but not to another person.

For the part of timbre (AKA timbral accuracy), I would define it as "what lets us tell apart a musical instrument or voice, even when they are hitting the same note at the same fundamental pitch and loudness". Timbre is very subjective too. Some people haven't heard a real-life violin up close, so they may not know how a violin sounds in real life. Some folk's music genres do not incorporate much acoustic instruments/vocals, so timbre isn't the first priority.
 
Dec 1, 2021 at 1:44 PM Post #1,776 of 3,716
Hey all, Thieaudio Monarch and Monarch MKII are out for delivery...

...at my home. I didn't realize they'd get here so fast, so I gave my home address lol. At least I have something to look forward to next week when I wrap up all these projects. Pretty interested to hear what the Monarch MKII is packing.
 
Dec 1, 2021 at 2:10 PM Post #1,777 of 3,716
Hey all, Thieaudio Monarch and Monarch MKII are out for delivery...

...at my home. I didn't realize they'd get here so fast, so I gave my home address lol. At least I have something to look forward to next week when I wrap up all these projects. Pretty interested to hear what the Monarch MKII is packing.
My guess. U12t is still number 1 to you even though Crinacle ranks this as the best IEM in the world today. You will like it slightly more than Monarch OG, but you still won't rank it above Helios. Projected precog rank: 6.4. It can't rank about a 64 Audio A18s.

The over under for Monarch mkii is 6.4.
 
Dec 1, 2021 at 7:06 PM Post #1,778 of 3,716
My guess. U12t is still number 1 to you even though Crinacle ranks this as the best IEM in the world today. You will like it slightly more than Monarch OG, but you still won't rank it above Helios. Projected precog rank: 6.4. It can't rank about a 64 Audio A18s.

The over under for Monarch mkii is 6.4.

Haha taking bets now, are we? Can't speak until I've heard it 😄
 
Dec 4, 2021 at 11:33 PM Post #1,781 of 3,716
Thieaudio Monarch MKII Impressions

Wow, I’m actually not late to the party by a year this time! I’m sure everyone knows about the Thieaudio Monarch already, but if you’re out of the loop it was one of last year’s most hyped tribrid IEMs - that I didn’t actually like very much. But that's the past. Presently, Thieaudio is back for round two with the Monarch MKII. Let's see if the Monarch MKII has what it takes to turn around my jaded paradigm.

graph-9.png

First - listening to the OG Monarch again really reinforces how weak the dynamic driver being used in it is. It’s smeared, plasticky, and sounds like it has little texture despite the excellent sub-bass shelf. In this regard, I can confirm that the Monarch MK2 is at least a solid improvement in the texturing department wherein bass notes hit with more “grip” to them. But I can’t say I’m impressed outside of this. The slam on the Monarch MK2’s bass is rather mediocre and I hear more air being pushed in direct A/B with the 64A U12t’s BA bass. No doubt some are tired of this comparison; nonetheless, it is my requisite for me to call a DD‘s bass at least noteworthy. That’s also ignoring the still rather obvious blunting issues to attack wherein there’s poor distinction between successive bass hits. To be perfectly blunt: I expect better for dynamic driver bass, and the Monarch MKII’s bass barely clears the bar for me.

That said, I have to say I mostly like the midrange of the Monarch MK2. It’s more palpable, slightly thicker than its predecessor thanks to some more warmth around 200Hz. The upper-midrange, at least the pinna compensation, is very close to the Harman 2019 IEM target so it’s pushing it for extended listening and comes off quite forward. But there’s a small improvement in clarity and texturing relative to the OG Monarch; maybe a difference of ‘0.5’ by my metrics, but it’s definitely present. Between the Symphonium Helios and the Monarch MKII, I would also say that midrange transients on the Monarch MKII actually sound more natural. The midrange is noticeably “louder” on the Helios even if I think transients sound more energetic on that IEM. This reassures me that the Monarch MKII is at least not being completely propped upon its sheer macro-detail like its predecessor. Good stuff.

Unfortunately, the Monarch MKII’s treble response is likely the biggest turn-off to its tuning. It’s characterized by heavy amounts of 5kHz, so leading hits have a certain sharpness to them that makes you think “wow, that's detail!” on initial listen, but it quickly becomes fatiguing to hear. This is followed by a minor slope off of the lower-treble which exacerbates the amplitude of this peak. It doesn't sound like particularly compressed treble (it helps that it’s not a straight dagger like many Chi-Fi IEMs), but I do think the tuning itself could have been done better. Speaking of which, the Monarch MKII’s extension could also benefit from some more air over 15kHz. It’s probably not a big deal for most listeners, but the Helios still has better detail in the upper-treble for me, as does the 64A U12t. Maybe it’s just my younger ears that are sluts for treble air, but I digress.

For intangibles outside of resolution, the Monarch MKII is a noticeable step-up in imaging capability. The OG Monarch had a rather 1-dimensional soundstage presentation (no height, no depth) and, on second listen, I don’t think its imaging is anything special. The Monarch MKII comes across more defined in its localization, thus mitigating the layering issues the OG Monarch had on busier stuff like Sawano Hiroyuki's music. Between the Symphonium Helios and the Monarch MK2, I’d still give the Helios the win for that “speaker-like,” enveloping quality (which is really something of a meme when we’re talking about IEMs), but it's close. Honestly, this is a great step forward and I think most listeners would be hard-pressed to find themselves outright dissatisfied with the Monarch MKII’s imaging chops. Lest you think me too praise-happy though, some readers will recall one of my biggest criticisms of the OG Monarch lay in its dynamic range. By this, I mean that there was a distinct lack of incisiveness to jumps in volume and vice versa in a track. Alas, this issue is still very much apparent on the Monarch MKII. Dynamic swings come across sort of “sputter-y” and dampened; the music just doesn’t seem to flow to my ears. I'm sorry, but there's simply no contest versus the Helios much less the U12t for this metric.

As an assessment of value, the Monarch MKII enters a highly competitive scene, but I think it definitely has what it takes to compete. Relative to its predecessor, the coherency issues aren’t as glaring, the technicalities are more refined, and the tuning is slightly more palpable. Needless to say this is the best IEM I’ve heard yet from Thieaudio and I can give it my stamp of approval if you’re gauging for this type of high-clarity sound. I wouldn't even bat an eye at someone who gravitates toward this over the Symphonium Helios despite the Helios coming out on top for the metrics I index for. But as for whether the Monarch MKII competes with “top-tier” IEMs, or is worthy of being called one...well, I think you already know my answer to that question. Further comparison outside what I've outlined above isn't warranted in my eyes.

Score: 7/10
 
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Dec 4, 2021 at 11:50 PM Post #1,782 of 3,716
Thieaudio Monarch MKII Impressions

Wow, I’m actually not late to the party by a year this time! I’m sure everyone knows about the Thieaudio Monarch already, but if you’re out of the loop it was one of last year’s most hyped tribrid IEMs - that I didn’t actually like very much. But that's the past. Presently, Thieaudio is back for round two with the Monarch MKII. Let's see if the Monarch MKII has what it takes to turn around my jaded paradigm.

graph-9.png

First - listening to the OG Monarch again really reinforces how weak the dynamic driver being used in it is. It’s smeared, plasticky, and sounds like it has little texture despite the excellent sub-bass shelf. In this regard, I can confirm that the Monarch MK2 is at least a solid improvement in the texturing department wherein bass notes hit with more “grip” to them. But I can’t say I’m impressed outside of this. The slam on the Monarch MK2’s bass is rather mediocre and I hear more air being pushed in direct A/B with the 64A U12t’s BA bass. No doubt some are tired of this comparison; nonetheless, it is my requisite for me to call a DD‘s bass at least noteworthy. That’s also ignoring the still rather obvious blunting issues to attack wherein there’s poor distinction between successive bass hits. To be perfectly blunt: I expect better for dynamic driver bass, and the Monarch MKII’s bass barely clears the bar for me.

That said, I have to say I mostly like the midrange of the Monarch MK2. It’s more palpable, slightly thicker than its predecessor thanks to some more warmth around 200Hz. The upper-midrange, at least the pinna compensation, is very close to the Harman 2019 IEM target so it’s pushing it for extended listening and comes off quite forward. But there’s a small improvement in clarity and texturing relative to the OG Monarch; maybe a difference of ‘0.5’ by my metrics, but it’s definitely present. Between the Symphonium Helios and the Monarch MKII, I would also say that midrange transients on the Monarch MKII actually sound more natural. The midrange is noticeably “louder” on the Helios even if I think transients sound more energetic on that IEM. This reassures me that the Monarch MKII is at least not being completely propped upon its sheer macro-detail like its predecessor. Good stuff.

Unfortunately, the Monarch MKII’s treble response is likely the biggest turn-off to its tuning. It’s characterized by heavy amounts of 5kHz, so leading hits have a certain sharpness to them that makes you think “wow, that's detail!” on initial listen, but it quickly becomes fatiguing to hear. This is followed by a minor slope off of the lower-treble which exacerbates the amplitude of this peak. It doesn't sound like particularly compressed treble (it helps that it’s not a straight dagger like many Chi-Fi IEMs), but I do think the tuning itself could have been done better. Speaking of which, the Monarch MKII’s extension could also benefit from some more air over 15kHz. It’s probably not a big deal for most listeners, but the Helios still has better detail in the upper-treble for me, as does the 64A U12t. Maybe it’s just my younger ears that are sluts for treble air, but I digress.

For intangibles outside of resolution, the Monarch MKII is a noticeable step-up in imaging capability. The OG Monarch had a rather 1-dimensional soundstage presentation (no height, no depth) and, on second listen, I don’t think its imaging is anything special. The Monarch MKII comes across more defined in its localization, thus mitigating the layering issues the OG Monarch had on busier stuff like Sawano Hiroyuki's music. Between the Symphonium Helios and the Monarch MK2, I’d still give the Helios the win for that “speaker-like,” enveloping quality (which is really something of a meme when we’re talking about IEMs), but it's close. Honestly, this is a great step forward and I think most listeners would be hard-pressed to find themselves outright dissatisfied with the Monarch MKII’s imaging chops. Lest you think me too praise-happy though, some readers will recall one of my biggest criticisms of the OG Monarch lay in its dynamic range. By this, I mean that there was a distinct lack of incisiveness to jumps in volume and vice versa in a track. Alas, this issue is still very much apparent on the Monarch MKII. Dynamic swings come across sort of “sputter-y” and dampened; the music just doesn’t seem to flow to my ears. I'm sorry, but there's simply no contest versus the Helios much less the U12t for this metric.

As an assessment of value, the Monarch MKII enters a highly competitive scene, but I think it definitely has what it takes to compete. Relative to its predecessor, the coherency issues aren’t as glaring, the technicalities are more refined, and the tuning is slightly more palpable. Needless to say this is the best IEM I’ve heard yet from Thieaudio and I can give it my stamp of approval if you’re gauging for this type of high-clarity sound. I wouldn't even bat an eye at someone who gravitates toward this over the Symphonium Helios despite the Helios coming out on top for the metrics I index for. But as for whether the Monarch MKII competes with “top-tier” IEMs, or is worthy of being called one...well, I think you already know my answer to that question. Further comparison outside what I've outlined above isn't warranted in my eyes.

Score: 7/10

All this talk of timbre, and then no review of the timbre?! How do they do timbre wise?
 
Dec 5, 2021 at 12:28 AM Post #1,783 of 3,716
All this talk of timbre, and then no review of the timbre?! How do they do timbre wise?

Haha, I alluded to it a bit when I talked about the bass and midrange texture. I think it's surprisingly good? It's a more life-like presentation that meshes some texture in without going overboard to gritty levels. However, the treble response sounds somewhat distinct because of the 5kHz plateau and perhaps a hint metallic even though I can't discern another specific peak. The Monarch MKII's certainly not as plasticky as the OG at least.
 
Dec 5, 2021 at 1:11 AM Post #1,784 of 3,716
Its distinct but in my opinion, it handles the treble duties far better than 64 Audio’s Tia driver and it doesn’t have their synthetic 12 balanced armature sound.
 
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Dec 5, 2021 at 3:12 AM Post #1,785 of 3,716
Its distinct but in my opinion, it handles the treble duties far better than 64 Audio’s Tia driver and it doesn’t have their synthetic 12 balanced armature sound.

Damn, you really hating on those tia drivers man 😂😂

To be fair, I don’t think you’re wrong about that in terms of linearity of response; I just find the tia stuff a hair more detailed and in a less jarring region for my preferences.
 

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