[3ternalDr4gon]

I've read the definitions in the glossary.
 
Amp provides more power
 
DAC converts digital data to analogue 
 
If this were simply the case, then amps shouldn't have an effect on SQ, but for some reason incomprehensible to me, they do.
 
Additionally, if we have highly efficient cans/iem's, we should prioritize buying a DAC over an amp, right?

 

[thatBeatsguy]

  I've read the definitions in the glossary.
 
Amp provides more power
 
DAC converts digital data to analogue 
 

• If this were simply the case, then amps shouldn't have an effect on SQ, but for some reason incomprehensible to me, they do.
• Additionally, if we have highly efficient cans/iem's, we should prioritize buying a DAC over an amp, right?

• Amps have an effect on SQ because of the circuitry inside each of them. The audio signal does go through the amp before it reaches your headphones, so the amp will affect the signal's sound signature (albeit slightly).
   
• Exactly. The point of an amplifier is to drive power-hungry headphones, after all. Whether they change the sound signature or not doesn't matter.

 

[3ternalDr4gon]

So all amps are consequently DAC's to some degree, however DAC's change the SQ more than amps?
 
Is it common for an amp to have a greater change in SQ than a DAC at similar price points?
 
It seems like amps, +dac or not, are a 2 for 1 deal, whereas DAC's change SQ but do not provide more juice 

 

[ProtegeManiac]

  I've read the definitions in the glossary.
 
Amp provides more power
 
DAC converts digital data to analogue 
 
If this were simply the case, then amps shouldn't have an effect on SQ, but for some reason incomprehensible to me, they do.

 

What you should read up on regarding these is harmonic distortion, stated in amp specs as Total Harmonic Distortion. As stated in percentage of its variance from the input signal, it doesn't say what specific types of distortion happens, and every amp can have different distortion characteristics as well as causes. While generally an amp will produce more distortion at higher output levels, it can vary depending on:

1. Distortion and output level. A really good amp for example can make 1watt per channel at 0.001% THD or 3watts per channel at 1% THD; while a bad amp will make, for example, 10mW at 0.001% THDor 100mW at 1% THD.At the same distortion level the good amp is outputting a lot more power, so it sounds more dynamic; at the same distortion level, you might not even get to listen to the good amp that loud to begin with since you're getting 3watts, but you're barely there on the bad amp. Between good amps with similar output curves however this is barely noticeable.

 

2. How the headphones affect the amp. Some headphones require that a lot more power due to low efficiency, while some may not require a lot of power but will require an amp that can deliver a still considerable amount of clean power on a high impedance load. Headphone impedance and efficiency can affect current and voltage requirements, and not all amps react the same way to the every headphone, not to mention that the stated nominal impedance at times don't stay fixed - some can spike on some frequencies. Generally a high impedance design on the headphone can minimize the effects, however, that also means that the amp to begin with should be able to deliver the necessary amount of power at low THD.

 

Also, speaker amps by contrast only have to be designed to work with, say, mostly 6ohm or 8ohm speakers; some 4ohm, and rarely anything more than 8ohms. By contrast, headphones can range from 12ohms to 600ohms.

 

3. Not all distortion sounds the same. In some cases you have "euphonic distortion" that makes the sound warmer, which some find more pleasing. Instead of coloring the analog signal going into the amp, some prefer using the amp to do this (not that I would deliberately do either). Yes I too wonder why an amplifier has to be a colorifier.
 

 
Additionally, if we have highly efficient cans/iem's, we should prioritize buying a DAC over an amp, right?

 

Well, no. Without a proper amp circuit with a proper potentiometer, how does the DAC even drive the IEM? The analog output stage on a DAC can't drive transducers properly, and then you'd be forced to use for example software volume control which can reduce the bit depth below 16bits. An amp on the other hand isn't a clear cut solution either - some amps can have too much gain and too much power, and analog potentiometers have a natural imbalance at low settings. What you need is a DAC to feed an amp (or a combined DAC-HPamp)  that can drive the IEM without being too much for it, as well as being very silent (ie black background/no background noise) or the IEMs will produce an audible hiss.

 

If you're using for example a smartphone then just forget about either unless yours is so bad that it has audible distortion. A smartphone already has an audio chip with an integrated DAC and headphone amp chip (which of course doesn't have its own bank of power caps, but hey, it's driving an IEM) that for the most part can drive efficient IEMs loud enough without enough audible distortion or, at least for some, not audible enough to justify lugging around a bulky system, or can be managed with an EQ program. My SGS3 has too strong bass on my already bassy IEMs but it has enough distortion that I can hear it, plus, even without an analog potentiometer, the steps in its volume control can go from "almost there" to "TURN IT DOWN!!!"(and vice versa) with one press of the volume button.

 

If anything a good DAP will make more sense than any of the above options if you're looking for improvements over a smartphone (with a DAC-HPamp or not) as long as you can forgo hearing calls coming in through your IEMs. It has a "better" DAC (more of a better analogue circuit between the DAC chip and the amp section), a better amp with less distortion, and likely more steps in its volume control. The SGS3 has around seven or eight steps from mute to full volume; by contrast, the Fiio X1 has 100 steps.

 

[thatBeatsguy]

 

• So all amps are consequently DAC's to some degree, however DAC's change the SQ more than amps?
   
• Is it common for an amp to have a greater change in SQ than a DAC at similar price points?
   
• It seems like amps, +dac or not, are a 2 for 1 deal, whereas DAC's change SQ but do not provide more juice 

• No. Amps are not DACs, whether they "change the sound" or not. Their purpose is, as an amplifier, to amplify the volume of the signal to make the sound louder.
• No. The change in sound is usually only very slight when you're looking at amps.
• NO. Like I said, amps are there to amplify the signal, and whatever changes it may bring about in that signal is only slight and is irrelevant. 

 
     I don't seem to get the point you're trying to get across here. Are you saying that you only want to get an amp and not a DAC since the DAC does nothing to amplify the signal whereas an amp also "changes" the sound and amplifies it? If you're going by this logic, let me correct you there. External DACs exist since most manufacturers don't really care about the DAC chips inside the audio output of a source device (especially PCs). Therefore, why you buy an external DAC is not to simply "change" the sound, but to improve it. Better DAC chips clean up distortion and any artifacts that often occur in cheaper, inferior ones.
 
     Look, whatever you're thinking, an amp is not a DAC. I can't stress this enough.

 

[superjawes]

DACs can have a bigger impact on SQ than an amp, but that's largely because you're getting a better analog signal on the output. If you just use an integrated DAC in your cell phone, then your analog signal is swimming in noise, and if you pass that to an amplifier, the noise gets amplified with the signal. The entire goal of the DAC is to turn a bunch of bits into a clean analog signal, so better DACs output those cleaner analog signals.

Amps can still change the quality of the audio, but the goal is less about fidelity and more about power. Many amp designs will output great signals with minimal distortion, but then the primary concern is pumping up the power to drive whatever headphones you connect. You want that power to bring out the full potential of your headphones.

DACs and amps perform very different tasks. The question is not: "how much does each affect the signal?" The question is: "Do they perform the task required of them?"

 

[3ternalDr4gon]

So if an amp is considered warm sounding and a DAC is considered bright, will the two combined (with a DAP or PC) create a combination of warmth/brightness or will the warm characteristics of the amp be overridden completely by the DAC's brightness?

 

[thatBeatsguy]

  So if an amp is considered warm sounding and a DAC is considered bright, will the two combined (with a DAP or PC) create a combination of warmth/brightness or will the warm characteristics of the amp be overridden completely by the DAC's brightness?

Let me just get this out of the way -- these questions are really something. I still don't see the point of these questions, but your conclusions are just laughable.
 
Look, a DAC doesn't have an EQ or something in it that will alter the sound directly, like making it warmer or brighter -- all it does is clean up the audio signal that comes out of your source. Moreover, the sound of the amp won't be "overridden" (seriously?) by the DAC's "brightness" (if there even is any); in fact, the reverse is true. 
 
Again, let me stress that whatever sonic changes occur in an amp or DAC, they are very, very, VERY slight and pale in comparison to entirely different headphones. So basically, if you're looking to alter the sound of your headphones/IEMs, you're really just better off using some sort of DSP EQ software or, better yet, get a different pair of cans.

 

[3ternalDr4gon]

You're* really something. 

 

[SunshineReggae]

  So all amps are consequently DAC's to some degree, however DAC's change the SQ more than amps?
 
Is it common for an amp to have a greater change in SQ than a DAC at similar price points?
 
It seems like amps, +dac or not, are a 2 for 1 deal, whereas DAC's change SQ but do not provide more juice 

 
It's actually the other way around; all DACs that have an output will also be amps, but amps are never DACs. Your cellphone has a DAC, but it also has an output, so it's also an amp. However, you know those big speaker amps with knobs and controls and stuff? They're amps, but not DACs. Although it's getting more and more common to have components that do both jobs.
 
Amps and DACs don't improve sound quality, nor are they supposed to change it. Basically, the mp3 file (or CD, or Vinyl; the medium) is 100% information. A DAC and amp are supposed to not lose any of that information while they're doing their job. In which case, you'd have a good amp and a good dac. It's very common, especially for amps, to lose information - either by altering it or flatout losing it. That's basically the definition of lowering fidelity.

 

[3ternalDr4gon]

Ok so from what I gather:
 
DAC = cleaner signal = better clarity/detail retrieval 
 
Amp = more power + slight change in SQ
 
I understand that the point of amps/DACs isn't to change SQ, but that fact is a little hard to digest when you have amps being described with all the adjectives that are being used for headphones as well. Also, I have a portable amp that makes the sound signature brighter and also produces more detail (when paired with my DAP). The latter effect should be something that happens with DAC's and not amps (according to my understanding thus far), but I notice it being done with this amp. So am I experiencing a disillusioned, inaccurate hearing bias towards my amp or is this possible? Is synergy between a couple pieces in a rig a myth?
 
Let's say you have this scenario:
 
Your current rig is [bright totl ciem w/ detachable cable, currently stock] --> [detailed but relatively cold DAP]
 
If your goal is to add more weight to the bottom while not losing any detail retrieval, or even potentially gain detail retrieval if possible while canceling out some of the brightness, what do you add to this rig?

 

[thatBeatsguy]

 
Let's say you have this scenario:
 
Your current rig is [bright totl ciem w/ detachable cable, currently stock] --> [detailed but relatively cold DAP]
 
If your goal is to add more weight to the bottom while not losing any detail retrieval, or even potentially gain detail retrieval if possible while canceling out some of the brightness, what do you add to this rig?

A tube amp to cancel out the brightness slightly. Lots of people who have HD800s often use tube amps to balance out their inherent brightness.
But since we're talking a CIEM, which is inherently very sensitive, a tube amp will not work very well because of its higher noise floor which was designed to be used with higher impedance and more power-hungry cans.
 
To fix this, you go solid-state, or hybrid. But then again, a lot of portable amps have bass circuits installed in them, so you could add more low-end to it without much effort. So for a CIEM, you will have to go for a portable amp with a bass circuit of some sort if you really want the extra low-end.

 

[SunshineReggae]

  Let's say you have this scenario:
 
Your current rig is [bright totl ciem w/ detachable cable, currently stock] --> [detailed but relatively cold DAP]
 
If your goal is to add more weight to the bottom while not losing any detail retrieval, or even potentially gain detail retrieval if possible while canceling out some of the brightness, what do you add to this rig?

 
Nothing. You don't buy bright earphones if you don't want a bright sound. You can add bass boost, you can add an amp with tone controls to tone down the treble, you can buy a DAP that doesn't su ck. But you are now jumping through hoops when you could have just bought appropriate earphones to begin with.
 
So many times there are people buying the DT880 only to complain that they're too bright. Whatever amp they use, the complaint remains: it's too bright. Well yeah, but you chose to ignore that information.

 

[thatBeatsguy]

 

  Let's say you have this scenario:
 
Your current rig is [bright totl ciem w/ detachable cable, currently stock] --> [detailed but relatively cold DAP]
 
If your goal is to add more weight to the bottom while not losing any detail retrieval, or even potentially gain detail retrieval if possible while canceling out some of the brightness, what do you add to this rig?

 
Nothing. You don't buy bright earphones if you don't want a bright sound. You can add bass boost, you can add an amp with tone controls to tone down the treble, you can buy a DAP that doesn't su ck. But you are now jumping through hoops when you could have just bought appropriate earphones to begin with.
 
So many times there are people buying the DT880 only to complain that they're too bright. Whatever amp they use, the complaint remains: it's too bright. Well yeah, but you chose to ignore that information.

There we go. At least someone else seems to agree with me now.

 

[SunshineReggae]

  Ok so from what I gather:
 
DAC = cleaner signal = better clarity/detail retrieval 
 
Amp = more power + slight change in SQ
 
I understand that the point of amps/DACs isn't to change SQ, but that fact is a little hard to digest when you have amps being described with all the adjectives that are being used for headphones as well.

 
Again, a DAC does not equal a cleaner signal. A DAC equals translating the signal from digital to analog. It's not about "better", or "more". It either does that job to the point that 100% of the information is flawlessly translated to analog, or it messes up and loses information. That's all there is to it. It can't work magic and make the original file "more betterer". Likewise for the amp, there should not be any change in sound quality. If there is, the amp is messing up at some point.
 
The reason there is so much talk about the sound of amps is that people enjoy looking at pretty boxes and glowing tubes, and because they like to endlessly argue that the way their fancy glowing box messes up the signal is in some way preferable. What you have to understand is that because an amp can't improve on the audio signal but only degrade it, these distortions of the signal are never objectively preferable. Some may like it, some won't. And also, you may like it one day, and hate it another.