Pioneer's First Hi-End Headphones: SE-Master 1
Dec 29, 2016 at 12:56 PM Post #1,066 of 2,196
care to clarify that point?

...and I wondered why I don't really come here much anymore, moderator or not, I find it harder and harder to want to be a part of it around here, and don't worry, I won't let the door hit me on the way out.

 
Indeed, the trolls, not having heard these phones and basing themselves on measurments that can be conducted in any subjective way imaginable, have managed to make this thread about one of the greatest phones around useless.
Funny how some can even write a review simply based on measurements. Ears are overrated. 
tongue.gif
 
 
Dec 29, 2016 at 1:51 PM Post #1,067 of 2,196
care to clarify that point?

...and I wondered why I don't really come here much anymore, moderator or not, I find it harder and harder to want to be a part of it around here, and don't worry, I won't let the door hit me on the way out.

 
I agree! Why am I even coming back here... this thread is so full of ignorance and lacking in knowledge and simple reason that it's not even funny. If you need clarification, just read JaZZ's post or several others further back by me and other non-biased owners with actual insight in how measurements work. 
 
   
Indeed, the trolls, not having heard these phones and basing themselves on measurments that can be conducted in any subjective way imaginable, have managed to make this thread about one of the greatest phones around useless.
Funny how some can even write a review simply based on measurements. Ears are overrated. 
tongue.gif
 


Trolls yes, that's what we are. Even though we have, in thorough and respectful efforts, done our best to make a serious point in order to help potential buyers make a decision, as a contrast to the biased and utterly ignorant praises from the likes of yourself. 
 
I agree bashing something publicly based on measurements alone is a bad idea, but I listened to the Pioneers at two occasions long before Tyll posted his measurements. First time with one friend, second time with two others. We all very much agreed it sounds like a piece of ****. Others commenting negatively also have listening experience. So I can't see where this scoffing is coming from? 
 
But you don't care do you? All you want from this thread is a choir of cheerleaders shouting out ratification around your precious, expensive toy which for some reason means so much to you. Polar opinions, and ESPECIALLY those backed up by a degree of objectivity (which yours are not, by the way!) hold no place here. You're the god of the world and your opinion is written in truth on stone tablets, there for man to worship unquestionably.
 
No more from me on this thread, or any thread on HF for that matter. I certainly have better things to do with my time than trying to talk sense into your thick skull. 
 
Dec 29, 2016 at 1:59 PM Post #1,068 of 2,196
 Originally Posted by Lan647 /img/forum/go_quote.gif  
I agree bashing something publicly based on measurements alone is a bad idea, but I listened to the Pioneers at two occasions long before Tyll posted his measurements. First time with one friend, second time with two others. We all very much agreed it sounds like a piece of ****. Others commenting negatively also have listening experience. So I can't see where this scoffing is coming from? 

 
What scdoffing? Was I talking about you?
This thread is full of posters bashing these phones without hearing them so you're one of the few that did.
 
Quote:
But you don't care do you? All you want from this thread is a choir of cheerleaders shouting out ratification around your precious, expensive toy which for some reason means so much to you. Polar opinions, and ESPECIALLY those backed up by a degree of objectivity (which yours are not, by the way!) hold no place here. You're the god of the world and your opinion is written in truth on stone tablets, there for man to worship unquestionably.  
No more from me on this thread, or any thread on HF for that matter. I certainly have better things to do with my time than trying to talk sense into your thick skull. 

 
Did I make  this personal and insulting?
Maybe I should. Either you're just a little kid or you act like one.
 
Dec 29, 2016 at 3:46 PM Post #1,069 of 2,196
Let's not all quit the board because of one headphone! There have been dudes and hidden gems before, and there will be more to come ... I find the discussions occuring in this thread relevant and a good illustration of the polarizing nature of the phones. It'd be a shame to see people like lan947 leave or fine gentlemen like duncan.
Arnaud
 
Dec 29, 2016 at 7:39 PM Post #1,070 of 2,196
Indeed, the trolls, not having heard these phones and basing themselves on measurments that can be conducted in any subjective way imaginable, have managed to make this thread about one of the greatest phones around useless.
Funny how some can even write a review simply based on measurements. Ears are overrated. :p  


another example of what lan647 has called out. all too predictable and so tiresome.
 
Dec 29, 2016 at 9:51 PM Post #1,071 of 2,196
I have the advantage of being a n00b :). Typically I can state my opinion explicitly and nobody comes after me :) :)

LAN647 has a point that he listened to this headphone and is not bashing it purely on measurements. There are two ways I see this
- this headphone aint his cup of tea. No issues with that. Everybody has their preferences. Doesnt mean the headphone is crap though.
- the setup which he auditioned may not be optimal. I can vouch for this personally. When I first heard new Sony TA ZH1ES headphone amp at biccamera few months back i was absolutely disappinted. The amp was playing some music setup by the store on Sony Z7. I discounted it immediately. Few weeks later I heard it at another store in a much quieter environment using my own source and with Z1R. I now own the ZH1ES.

Being a manager at work for many years I realize two things (i) strong opinions are bound to be opposed as they are typically taken as one sided (which they often are :)) and, there is always other face of the coin. Hence I find it best to neuter my response. For instance I consider my HD800 purchase a mistake but it doesnt equate to HD800 being crap. It is many others favorite.

All said, i am listening to my SE M1 as I type. It came out almost after a month and I was busy moving. Going from Z1R to LCD 3, LCD X, TH900 and HD00 (all running via TA ZH1ES in balanced mode except SE M1) I can easily say this is probably one of the most musical and engaging headphone in my stable with Z1R and LCD 3 coming next. Depending on the genre others may top the chart but this is amongst the best for me. For me!
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Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Dec 29, 2016 at 10:52 PM Post #1,072 of 2,196
to be fair, he was describing how it sounded to him and his friends. it's also apparent from his post that he is exasperated, and with good reason.

it's always frustrating when folks take criticism of the cans they own personally, and respond by misrepresenting what you post and your motive for doing so. ignorance is one thing, but repeating the same point after folks have taken the time and effort to explain why it's misguided is more than inexcusable, it's reprehensible.
 
Dec 30, 2016 at 1:01 PM Post #1,073 of 2,196
Gee, all the excitement! It’s just a headphone, people! (Although one of the world’s current best in my opinion.
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Re: the whole measurement discussion: I actually don’t care either way because it just does not concern me; I feel that it is of an academic interest at best. The situation as it is presents itself to me something like this: Some people have said that apparently this headphone that I happen to like very much has to sound really bad because of some measurements someone did, the process behind which I don’t even begin to understand. There has been talk of certain „ringing“. So what do I do? I try to listen for it. I then find that I just can’t hear anything remotely bad. What I do hear are the outstanding qualities of this headphone. I’ll reiterate: Its terrific resolution and open, airy sound combined with the great bass extension make this a very serious contender for one of the best headphones in every category period. Should there be any flaws in other departments, then perhaps these abovementioned qualities, which are extremely important to me as a listener, are redeeming enough to render these alleged flaws immaterial.
 
I am therefore faced with the curious situation that someone wants to tell me that reality is different from what I perceive. Should I believe them? Being a gentleman and a scholar, I would be inclined to do so, could they provide me with sufficient data to support their claim. However, this headphone game is not hard science. Listening is personal, and nobody will be able to measure exactly what I hear. For anyone interested in how subjective this whole thing really is, this video from the „Binaural Head-Fi meet“ has really opened my eyes and ears to how much even the smallest differences in the anatomy of our ears affect what we hear. Food for thought when it comes to „objective“ measurements. 
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OrObN8YIRq8
 
But even ignoring this important point, let us take a look at the "facts" they present us with and see if they might be sufficient to sway me (or anyone):
 
  • I have no insight into the measuring method that was used. For all I know, the equipment used could have been faulty, or the person doing the measuring could have been a nitwit. I just don’t know and have no means to find out. Btw, Tyll has recently announced that he has been using faulty equipment for a while which has influenced measurement results in a negative way. To my knowledge, he has been remeasuring some, but not all the headphones that may have been affected. Again, food for thought.
  • One point of data is not enough. How many people have conducted this experiment? Have they reached the exact same results? I am honestly interested in this.
  • Who says that what is measured is actually audible? From my own observations, I am inclined to believe that whatever critical points these measurements are supposed to show are blown way out of proportion. I tend to have a critical approach towards my purchases and believe me, I really have tried to listen critically for any „ringing“, I really wanted to hear it. I couldn’t for the life of me.
  • Is it feasible that the people who have tuned this headphone actually knew what the were doing and have tuned it in such a way that it may look lackluster on paper but sound just splendid in reality? Perhaps what others call „distortion“ will have a nice effect on the sound as I perceive it. Again, there’s nothing wrong in politely pointing out peculiarities in any measured data in a helpful spirit. Providing information is always a good thing. But it should be left to me what to make of it. If you’re insulting me, you’ll only lose me as an ardent listener.
 
Well, I don’t have anything more to add to this discussion. Perhaps it's just my ignorance that saves me from realizing what a horrible device it is I find so much joy in. In that case, ignorance would truly be bliss! 
tongue.gif

 
 
Quote:
  I just finished my move and the SE-M1 will be coming out tonight
biggrin.gif
 During the move I kept my Shure 1840 out or daily listening. Its no slouch but going from Z1R and SE-M1 to it was a 'audible' downgrade. Keen to hear the M1 tonight. I also managed to get Sony TA-ZH1ES amp (just came in today at office) so tonight should be very interesting
biggrin.gif

 
Phonomat - any impressions with the balanced cable that you can share?

 
Sadly, no. Mea culpa. I have three new things that I have to come to terms with: the WM1A, the Z1R and the balanced Pioneer cable. Since I still have to decide if I'm going to keep the Z1R, this is the top priority right now. My evaluation method is that I try to listen more or less exclusively to one device for a prolonged period, which I now do to the Z1R (mostly via WM1A), only here and there changing back to the SE-Master1 for a quick comparison on a certain track. To add the balanced cable would just confront me with one more variable, and it's hard enough as it is. The Master1 is clearly the better headphone for me, it trumps the Z1R in all aspects except maybe bass. Also, I don't really need a complement. And yet, there is a certain "guilty pleasure" quality about the Z1R. It's ... fun, even if it sounds almost, well, mid-fi compared to the SE-M1 due to its closed nature. (Chill, people, I said "almost", lol.) I see it as a great upgrade for the TH-900, but I probably have become too accustomed to the SE-M1's open, airy sound. I think I might keep it nonetheless to have a closed-back alternative when need be. How do the two compare in your opinion?
 
@AppleheadMay, how do you think they stack up?
 

 
I think we might have more or less collectively slammed this review a couple pages back. And going back to it now, I have to say that almost nothing in it adds up, unfortunately.
 
*facepalm*

 
See this as a prime example of a typical troll post for future reference. It is arrogant and childish and does not add anything to the discussion.
 
another example of what lan647 has called out. all too predictable and so tiresome.

 
 
to be fair, he was describing how it sounded to him and his friends. it's also apparent from his post that he is exasperated, and with good reason.

it's always frustrating when folks take criticism of the cans they own personally, and respond by misrepresenting what you post and your motive for doing so. ignorance is one thing, but repeating the same point after folks have taken the time and effort to explain why it's misguided is more than inexcusable, it's reprehensible.

 
 
He/she has not called out anything. He/she is simply a WUM. Anyone who says any headphone sounds like s**t, as far as I am concerned, has forfeited their right to be taken seriously and entered troll territory and should not even be addressed at all. So why do we even bother? Because it is just so wrong, lol! First of all, s**t does not even make a sound!
biggrin.gif
 Second of all, even if we take the claim less literally for a second, it is a crass exaggeration. If you’re using hyperbole for extra clarification as your weapon of choice in a dispute, you will reap exaggerated contradiction. It is simply necessary for the other side to even out the battleground. Third of all, by making a broad, absolute claim like that, you’re basically saying that I and everyone else who likes to listen this headphone is an idiot because we like to listen to s**t. It’s rude, and I don’t like that.
 
If someone partakes in a public forum like this and we have the possibility to react to their post, the first thing we should ask ourselves is, do they want to enter a fair and open discourse? In the case of lan647, he/she is very palpably biased against this headphone -- much more, I feel, than I as an owner am biased for it. Which makes his/her opinion not really worth my while. As his/her judgement is clearly impaired by this bias, there is not much I expect to learn from it. What's even worse is that he/she behaves in a hostile manner, is very easily aggravated and overly antagonizing and apparently suffers from insufficient impulse control, which leads me to the conclusion that he/she is either indeed a minor or an adult with issues. (I know we're not supposed to get personal, but in a case like this, it’s hard not to factor this in.) There is a German proverb saying: „Wer schreit, hat unrecht“, which roughly translates to „He who shouts is wrong“. I think this merits consideration. There’s no harm in politely pointing out peculiarities in any measured data in a helpful spirit. Providing information is always a good thing and most certainly appreciated. But it should be left to me what to make of it. If you’re insulting me, you’ll only lose me as an ardent listener. Resorting to namecalling or rudeness as he/she has in answer to @AppleheadMay, for example, in my eyes devaluates everything he/she has to say on a factual basis. Democracy and freedom of speech go a long way, but that doesn't mean we have to take s**t from some random stranger on the internet. Rant over.
 
Dec 30, 2016 at 4:04 PM Post #1,075 of 2,196
   
Hi Duncan
 
Sorry to say, but your conclusion is wrong in both aspects: ringing after signal stop is never caused by the driving amp. After signal stop the amp is electrically inactive, disconnected, so to speak. In fact the ringing has a clear connection with the 6 kHz spike in the Inner Fidelity graph. Look at the 300 Hz square wave and count the number of ripples per half-wave: there are ten of about the same kind, which doubles to twenty for one wave cycle, multiplied by the 300 Hz makes 6000 Hz. That's undisputably a quite distinct resonance, most likely with a mechanical cause.
 
Now to the Utopia: There are just under seven ripples per half-wave on the 300 Hz square-wave graph, which doubles to about thirteen for a full cycle, multiplied by 300 Hz makes 4000 Hz – corresponding to the hump in the amplitude response. But note that this hump and the intensity of the ringing have nowhere near the «quality» in terms of resonant behavior as those in the Pioneer's response.
 
Another critical aspect in the SE Master 1's measuring data is the extremely high harmonic distortion at low frequencies. The really low distortion figures above 300 Hz are an astonishing contrast. Now the low-frequency distortion won't be audible as such, but it certainly will add warmth and maybe even «texture» to bass notes. I haven't heard the headphone so far, but I can imagine that it will breathe life into some anemic studio bass guitars, making it sound closer to stage equipment. In turn it's likely not an ideal coloration with large classical orchestras, where it may compomize transparency.
 
In any event there's nothing wrong with liking the SE Master 1 as it is. To each his and her own. Some people like tube sound – I even belong to them myself, although I've found a better alternative. There's no need to defend a product for defending the own sonic preferences. It's even downright counterproductive to dismiss measuring data, which tell one important aspect of the truth after all – even though it's not the whole – for somebody who wants to learn more about audio.

A very well written, and informed, post as well and I think it highlights one of the attributes of the SEM1 that makes me enjoy them: they sound more "live" than any other headphone I've heard to date. I also spend a lot of time listening to live music in small venues, that definitely don't have the best acoustics, so maybe that's why the measurable defects that the SEM1 (supposedly?) have doesn't bother me...
 
Dec 30, 2016 at 4:15 PM Post #1,076 of 2,196
Let's not all quit the board because of one headphone! There have been dudes and hidden gems before, and there will be more to come ... I find the discussions occuring in this thread relevant and a good illustration of the polarizing nature of the phones. It'd be a shame to see people like lan947 leave or fine gentlemen like duncan.
Arnaud

Thanks Arnaud for another levelheaded post. As I already mentioned, these headphones have, and still are, very polarizing for me as well (I even have them up for sale) but since I know I will miss them more than any other headphone I currently own, I no longer think I will sell them since some times, and with some music, there is no other headphone that I'd rather be listening to...
 
Dec 30, 2016 at 4:42 PM Post #1,077 of 2,196
Best post I've read in this thread for a very, very long time...

 
Indeed.
 
   
Sadly, no. Mea culpa. I have three new things that I have to come to terms with: the WM1A, the Z1R and the balanced Pioneer cable. Since I still have to decide if I'm going to keep the Z1R, this is the top priority right now. My evaluation method is that I try to listen more or less exclusively to one device for a prolonged period, which I now do to the Z1R (mostly via WM1A), only here and there changing back to the SE-Master1 for a quick comparison on a certain track. To add the balanced cable would just confront me with one more variable, and it's hard enough as it is. The Master1 is clearly the better headphone for me, it trumps the Z1R in all aspects except maybe bass. Also, I don't really need a complement. And yet, there is a certain "guilty pleasure" quality about the Z1R. It's ... fun, even if it sounds almost, well, mid-fi compared to the SE-M1 due to its closed nature. (Chill, people, I said "almost", lol.) I see it as a great upgrade for the TH-900, but I probably have become too accustomed to the SE-M1's open, airy sound. I think I might keep it nonetheless to have a closed-back alternative when need be. How do the two compare in your opinion?
 
@AppleheadMay, how do you think they stack up?
 

 
More or less the same idea although I am over comparing the Z1R and M1.
The Z1R is no mediocre phone for sure and it has a good fun factor as well but the Z1R has some more of that making the M1 more serious.
Both are true high end cans IMO without sounding flat and dry.
The M1 is my to go phone for listening music (along with the HD650) while the closed Z1R is used for music more occasionally although they perform just as well they get more time here for movies or a game. So for me there is no competition between the M1 and Z1R, they both have a place in my collection. 
The competition is more between the Z1R and TH-900, both being closed, having deep clean bass, both very spatial for closed phones. So I wonder if I will keep both.
A closed pair of cans of the likes of the LA-900 and Z1R are important for me since I have a Smyth Realiser on order.
The M1? Will be comparing it with the Elear and Utopia in a couple of weeks and I really have no idea which I'll like best since I heard very different impressions of the Focal offerings.
 
Dec 30, 2016 at 5:14 PM Post #1,078 of 2,196
Interestingly, I found the z1r plain awful when I tried it at akiba store the other day. However processed the 1000-ax or whatever reference the active headset is, its treble is far more natural than the zingy z1r was to me ears! Probably some of it was the iphone used to drive it, I had nothing else if I'd use my own music.

Seeing how several people seem to have both phones here, there's clearly some sonic preferences at play and I may not be a fan of japanese brands / curious trend in voicing (exception being Stax but with exceptions there too lol).

That does not make supporters of the sony / pioneer idiots but it's safe to say we can ignore each others advice for listening to gear lol.

Arnaud
 
Dec 30, 2016 at 8:51 PM Post #1,079 of 2,196
@phonomat - in response to your post, if the measurement discussion doesn't concern you then why weigh into it? having done so, you say that some people have condemned the sem1 that you "happen to like very much" based on the measurements. that's not the whole story as i understand it. some folks have criticised its measured performance, which is not the same as panning it for how it sounds. however, some folks have heard the sem1 and panned its sound. while some have identified a correlation between the sem1's measured performance and how it sounds to them, and panned it.

you say that you can't hear the ringing that appears in the measurements. fine, you don't have to. as i've said repeatedly here, there's no requirement for our subjective perception and sonic preferences to align with the objective measurements, and you appear to be conflating them just as others have done here. just because you don't hear it doesn't mean that it's not there and measurable. there could be any number of reasons why you don't hear it, which i won't go into here, but that shouldn't concern you as you regard the measurements as "of an academic interest at best". your "reality" is based on your subjective perception, which is apparently more relevant and valid to you than the objective data. and there's nothing curious about being a subjectivist.

the objective data that is being referred to happens to come from innerfidelity, which is a popular reference for headphone measurements. it's also the only data point we have for the sem1 currently so far as i'm aware, so it's understandable that we refer to it in the absence of anything else. as long as we regard the measurements as indicative rather than definitive, i see no compelling reason in the "facts" as you present them to be dismissive of the measurements or to cast doubt over the competency of the person who has taken them. and for the record, tyll identified a fault with his thd measurements which had developed and was rectified. equipment can become faulty as we know, but you would be drawing a very long bow to suggest that all of tyll's measurements are unreliable because of that particular issue, which was only temporary. as to your point that it's feasible that the people who have tuned the sem1 actually know what they're doing, well i have no doubt that they do but the same could be said for grado and ultrasone, and i've seen some disparaging remarks made about how their cans sound and measure. :wink:

with regard to the review that i posted, i checked and it was originally posted some 17 pages back. anyways, i wasn't aware of that or the collective slamming it received. i thought it was quite considered, but it seems that sem1 owners are just as dismissive of critical assessments as they are of poor measured performance. i guess that could be seen as being even-handed. :wink:

with regard to lan647's posts, while i don't condone the manner in which he expressed his feelings, i completely understand what brought him to that point and why he called out one person in particular as a cause of his frustration.

all of this "excitement" has occurred here for the same old reason that it usually does - folks taking criticism personally of the cans they have invested in and really like, regardless of whether it's based on objective data or subjective perception. and i really do find it all too predictable and tiresome.
 
Dec 30, 2016 at 8:51 PM Post #1,080 of 2,196
Well I am one of the idiots with the Z1R :smirk:....of course I really like it but not for this thread to explain further.

Apart from sound quality I am interested in comparisons with the Z1R in terms of comfort and build quality. They seem very similar in all respects, so it's probably a difference between wanting open v closed.
 

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