Pioneer's First Hi-End Headphones: SE-Master 1
Nov 20, 2016 at 7:42 AM Post #1,006 of 1,962

up late

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Interesting analogies. Consider following
- Atmospheric O2 content decreases with elevation. Its a fact which can be calculated/backed mathematically and therefore cant be disputed at scientific level. Yes, some people are able to scale everest without supplemental O2 while others (seemingly very fit) succumb to pulmonary edema etc. Point - we all have different constitutions. Same parameters impact us differently
- Temperature is a measurable variable and cant be disputed either, however someone living in Hokkaido or Alaska may find 15 degrees quite pleasent compared to a person who has spent life close to Equator. Heck, my wife sometimes complains 25 degrees being cold for her. Point - X degrees is X degrees but you don't need to look a temperature gauge to determine you are comfortable or not, don't you? :)
- Speed is also measurable but being riding motorcycle for quite a few years I can tell you one thing - 100kph on a 1000cc bike doesn't feel the same as 100kph on a 250 cc bike. You feel the stress and speed much earlier on smaller bore engine. That doesn't mean you cant enjoy motorcycling on lower cc motorcycles. Ever seen the bunch of people riding pocket bikes on mountain roads? trust me mate, it is sometimes more fun than riding a 1000cc on the same roads.
Lastly when you are riding, you don't look at speedometer to have to get the 'thrill':)

I don't think you are someone who is trying to push hard measurement on others so apologies if my post comes as inflammatory. I am just stating that having fun in a hobby isnt necessarily tied with specs of the instrument associated with that hobby. Personally I have no issues if people want to use specs and charts to decide their purchase and enjoy it. I just want it to be pushed on my face (again, I am not saying you are doing but I do see some posts which are fixated on charts to the point they outright discount this headphone). In short - we respect you/you respect us :)

Completely off-topic but since we drifted to speed and motorcycles, enjoy some scenery from Japan and Korea :) -> www.riachan.com/wordpress


i'm glad you acknowledge that i'm not pushing measurements on to others. i also deliberately avoid using analogies as i regard them as inherently flawed, but i made an exception here to provide some examples of why dismissing headphone measurements on the grounds that they don't align with someone's subjective perception and personal preference, is kinda missing the point of them. i also suggested that headphone measurements should be regarded as indicative rather than absolute.

your analogies are also interesting but they're really just more examples of how we are all different, and that our subjective experiences can diverge from objective standards and measurements. point - they don't have to align with them as i also said in an earlier post, but that doesn't make them invalid, useless or irrelevant, as one person in particular here has been pushing... hard. :wink:

i don't think that anyone here is advocating that having fun in this hobby is "necessarily tied with specs of the instrument associated with that hobby" - i'm certainly not. however, there are folks involved in this hobby who happen to derive fun from delving into the more technical aspects of it. i think this hobby is big enough to include them too don't you?

i regard subjective impressions and headphone measurements as complementary, which is why i view your "we respect you/you respect us" sentiment as completely unnecessary. i'm also not in the habit of pushing specs into anyone's face, including yours. however, i'm not going to avoid referring to an fr chart in the midst of a subjective debate over whether a can has a treble peak or lacks sub-bass for example, when i think that an objective data point is precisely what is missing from it. then again, this is the age of "truthiness". :wink:
 
Nov 20, 2016 at 12:34 PM Post #1,007 of 1,962

Lan647

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i'm glad you acknowledge that i'm not pushing measurements on to others. i also deliberately avoid using analogies as i regard them as inherently flawed, but i made an exception here to provide some examples of why dismissing headphone measurements on the grounds that they don't align with someone's subjective perception and personal preference, is kinda missing the point of them. i also suggested that headphone measurements should be regarded as indicative rather than absolute.

your analogies are also interesting but they're really just more examples of how we are all different, and that our subjective experiences can diverge from objective standards and measurements. point - they don't have to align with them as i also said in an earlier post, but that doesn't make them invalid, useless or irrelevant, as one person in particular here has been pushing... hard.
wink.gif


i don't think that anyone here is advocating that having fun in this hobby is "necessarily tied with specs of the instrument associated with that hobby" - i'm certainly not. however, there are folks involved in this hobby who happen to derive fun from delving into the more technical aspects of it. i think this hobby is big enough to include them too don't you?

i regard subjective impressions and headphone measurements as complementary, which is why i view your "we respect you/you respect us" sentiment as completely unnecessary. i'm also not in the habit of pushing specs into anyone's face, including yours. however, i'm not going to avoid referring to an fr chart in the midst of a subjective debate over whether a can has a treble peak or lacks sub-bass for example, when i think that an objective data point is precisely what is missing from it. then again, this is the age of "truthiness".
wink.gif


Very much agree with these statements. Big like! 
 
Nov 20, 2016 at 4:22 PM Post #1,008 of 1,962

AppleheadMay

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i'm glad you acknowledge that i'm not pushing measurements on to others. i also deliberately avoid using analogies as i regard them as inherently flawed, but i made an exception here to provide some examples of why dismissing headphone measurements on the grounds that they don't align with someone's subjective perception and personal preference, is kinda missing the point of them. i also suggested that headphone measurements should be regarded as indicative rather than absolute.

your analogies are also interesting but they're really just more examples of how we are all different, and that our subjective experiences can diverge from objective standards and measurements. point - they don't have to align with them as i also said in an earlier post, but that doesn't make them invalid, useless or irrelevant, as one person in particular here has been pushing... hard.
wink.gif


i don't think that anyone here is advocating that having fun in this hobby is "necessarily tied with specs of the instrument associated with that hobby" - i'm certainly not. however, there are folks involved in this hobby who happen to derive fun from delving into the more technical aspects of it. i think this hobby is big enough to include them too don't you?

i regard subjective impressions and headphone measurements as complementary, which is why i view your "we respect you/you respect us" sentiment as completely unnecessary. i'm also not in the habit of pushing specs into anyone's face, including yours. however, i'm not going to avoid referring to an fr chart in the midst of a subjective debate over whether a can has a treble peak or lacks sub-bass for example, when i think that an objective data point is precisely what is missing from it. then again, this is the age of "truthiness".
wink.gif

 
Indeed, but some of the spec fans are rather different from you.
 
  Hi, honestly I cannot say that the Pioneer is more than 2 times better than the Elear. As I said, I find the Elear to be a very good heaphone. I like the Pioneer more! I didn't try the Mcintosh.
But I guess in the end it all comes down to your taste in headphones, you should try them. At this price range, I would never have considered to buy either of them without trying them myself.

 
If it's any help I wasn't much of a fan of the McIntosh, I considered it an average headphone, the likes of the B&W P7 Oppo PM-1 and Eudeze EL-8 series when I auditioned it. Not bad but nothing to get excited about IMO.
 
Nov 20, 2016 at 5:23 PM Post #1,009 of 1,962

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The only thing I'd mention as my own pet peeve here is that the FR chart that we're referring to is a single one, performed on a single unit, by a single person.

I know all about Tyll's test stand and procedures, but my point is that it's only a single data point. And we all know that's not enough to hold up the entire "this is the objective reference" argument.

It's what people have to look at, so it's what's being used, but it's by no means the absolute and until we've got more charts to put on top of each other and start to derive an average FR for the SEM1 from, no one should be referring to it as if it has.



Then besides that, why don't we bring this talk back to some actual discussion? Right now there's a lot going on about not these headphones directly and not these impressions.

For my own question on this topic, does anyone know of an earpad that would be a compatible diameter to the SEM1's? Like on the outside and that could fit around the securing ring? I suppose an Audeze Vegan or Leather would fit, but I'm also wondering about the spacious inside. The SEM1 has a really wide internal area and I'm a fan of that, but I also wonder about switching pads~
 
Nov 20, 2016 at 6:39 PM Post #1,010 of 1,962

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well it might be quite some time before we see several measurements of this can, so I welcome at least one set from a respected source. again, we should regard tyll's as indicative rather than absolute.
 
Nov 23, 2016 at 5:09 AM Post #1,011 of 1,962

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Does that justify the lackluster measured performance of Master 1?
Keep paying for a brand name and not for a quality product if so :)


I guess you completely missed the point :flushed:

Pioneer is more established as a maker of extremely high quality Hi-Fi equipment than many other audio companies
They have been around for a very long time - so I don't believe they are less 'established' manufacturer of audio gear.
 
Nov 23, 2016 at 2:56 PM Post #1,013 of 1,962

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I guess you completely missed the point :flushed:

Pioneer is more established as a maker of extremely high quality Hi-Fi equipment than many other audio companies
They have been around for a very long time - so I don't believe they are less 'established' manufacturer of audio gear.

 
I'm not the adequate person to say this (english is my second language), but...do you have reading comprehension issues?
 
Nov 23, 2016 at 3:36 PM Post #1,016 of 1,962

AppleheadMay

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In fact, I'm contributing with this thread, with an objective point of view of why this headphone should not cost 2500 usd...it seems that now possitve hype is the only valuable contribution

 
Your point of view is as subjective as anyone else's.
It is my point of view that no headphone should kost 2.5k, let alone 4k. But that's subjective as well.
Nevertheless, if I really like a headphone so much I want it I have to pay it's price no matter how high that is.
 
Nov 24, 2016 at 9:48 AM Post #1,017 of 1,962

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Your point of view is as subjective as anyone else's.
It is my point of view that no headphone should kost 2.5k, let alone 4k. But that's subjective as well.
Nevertheless, if I really like a headphone so much I want it I have to pay it's price no matter how high that is.

 
So, measurements are subjective?...bravo 
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Nov 24, 2016 at 10:15 AM Post #1,018 of 1,962

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In fact, I'm contributing with this thread, with an objective point of view of why this headphone should not cost 2500 usd...it seems that now possitve hype is the only valuable contribution


AppleheadMay's comment was related to the above statement from you that does not refer to any measurements.
The craftmanship of the SEM1 is impeccable and some people's point of view may be that this alone justifies the 2500 USD price tag.
 
Nov 24, 2016 at 11:32 AM Post #1,019 of 1,962

ToroFiestaSol

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AppleheadMay's comment was related to the above statement from you that does not refer to any measurements.
The craftmanship of the SEM1 is impeccable and some people's point of view may be that this alone justifies the 2500 USD price tag.

 
Yes, build quality is nice, and they also look beautiful, they're like the polar opposite of Hifiman HE-1000 (lackluster build quality, nice sound).
Ultrasone headphones look beautiful too, but that sound mmm...no
 
I can accept a 2500usd piece of furniture looking nice, because it doesn't have to sound, but a 2500usd headphone? Not only has to look nice with a build quality that justifies the price, it also has to sound and measure like a 2500usd headphone (not talking about frequency response, but on distortion, impulse response, etc)...if not, what's the point? 
 
Nov 24, 2016 at 12:13 PM Post #1,020 of 1,962

AppleheadMay

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AppleheadMay's comment was related to the above statement from you that does not refer to any measurements.
The craftmanship of the SEM1 is impeccable and some people's point of view may be that this alone justifies the 2500 USD price tag.

 
Thanks for clarifying. Either he's can't read well or, more likely, he deliberately tries to misunderstand in order to troll this thread. His opinion is irrelevant anyway since he's never heard them.
 
But indeed, even measurements aren't objective as they can be performed in various ways as some people described on the previous pages of this thread. 
And inacurrate measuremtns happen as well after which they are revised, which happened on this site.
Anyway, the fact is measurements can't tell me and many others if I or we will like a pair of phones or not as these, and not only these, phones prove.
 

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