Pioneer's First Hi-End Headphones: SE-Master 1
Nov 11, 2016 at 4:57 PM Post #961 of 2,196
To everyone in this thread but especially @ Lan647 and ToroFiestaSol...
 
I think we all agree that in a perfect world, we should have great measurements and great sounds for a reasonable price.
 
However, in the real world (were we unfortunately live), measurements, and in particular for a headphone setup, isn't the only thing that matters since we all have different sizes & shapes of our heads, ears, ear canals and most importantly, different hearing defects.
 
I've owned the HD800 twice (the 2nd time with the Super DuPont mod) and I've also spent several weeks with the SR-009 but regardless how of well they measure, they just failed to move me.
 
The HD800/SR-009 just hurt my ears and after few minutes of listeninig (maybe ten to be generous) my mind started to drift and I began thinking that maybe I should be doing something else instead (like shoveling snow).
 
In can therefore, in all honestly, confess that in contrast to the superior measurements of the HD800/SR-009, I've never felt that I'd rather be shoveling snow than listening to the SEM1s...
 
That said, I wouldn't recommend the SEM1 as the one and only headphone since it's far from perfect but saying that someone cannot enjoy the SEM1s because there are other headphones that measures better (in a single setup that with close to 100% certainly does not in any way correspond to, or compensate for, my head, ears or hearing defects) is like saying that I cannot enjoy:
 
- a concert in a small crowded venue because the acoustics are bad compared to a reasonable mastered CD.
- a particular view since my expensive sunglasses exaggerate all the colors and there are some cheap sunglasses in the gas station nearby that doesn't distort the colors half as much.
- a fat, greasy, juicy, tasty half burned steak when I instead could have a vegetarian alternative that is at least thousand times healthier for my body.
- a ride in a smelly, loud and fuel consuming V8 American car just because there is a Japanese car that in every other measurable and conceivable aspect have superior measurements.
 
I could probably come up with more analogies but just to emphasize my point, I have a masters degree in theoretical physics as well as in electrical engineering and in spite of this, my recommendation is just to trust your ears much more than any measurements, reviews,expert opinions (or how expensive the equipment is) and instead follow your own musical taste, pleasure and personal satisfaction.
 
If you're happy with the sound of your $10 headphone or IEM, you shouldn't think that something is wrong with your hearing , you should instead consider yourself extremely lucky that you don't need to buy more expensive headphones to enjoy the music you like.
 
The only regret I have is really that I whish someone had told me that several hundred of wasted Euros ago...
 
Nov 11, 2016 at 6:35 PM Post #962 of 2,196
Well, I'm an acoustics engineer and definitely do not reject headphone measurements although I agree that they may unfortunately influence how you'll perceive a phone response (many people listen to headphones prior to measuring them for this reason and use data to explain what they heard).

In pioneer's case, it started from their brochure, with this really weird response curve (5dB peak at 4k and 10dB one at 20k, bass roll off from 150Hz): http://pioneer-headphones.com/english/se-master1/technology/

I suppose the main issue here is that marketing dept were perhaps out of the depth when they were handed a curve from the tech department but it is an almost laughable curve unless context was explained (open baffle / driver only near field measurement etc...).

On the impressions side, if you say you can't stand the 009 for 10min and put them in the same bag as stock hd800 while at the same time loving the pioneer's sig, I'd say something went very wrong somewhere (either in what your reference sound is or the system / music being listened to).

As a matter of fact, the pioneer went from sounding dog awful to nice depending on the music I'd use and if I tried to acclimate to the sound (akin to an ultrasone can). So, it's one of those cans that one absolutely must listen to before purchase as it's going to be pretty hit and miss imo.

We see in this thread that the can is very very polarizing with totally different impressions depending on the people, we see much less of this with more neutral phones (the utopia comes to mind). These phones may not be what you want but there's no question they are more truthfull to the source material being played (which is my goal in this hobby, i'd settle with much cheaper gear otherwise).

Cheers,
Arnaud
 
Nov 11, 2016 at 9:17 PM Post #963 of 2,196
"...saying that someone cannot enjoy the SEM1s because there are other headphones that measures better (in a single setup that with close to 100% certainly does not in any way correspond to, or compensate for, my head, ears or hearing defects) is like saying that I cannot enjoy:

- a concert in a small crowded venue because the acoustics are bad compared to a reasonable mastered CD.
- a particular view since my expensive sunglasses exaggerate all the colors and there are some cheap sunglasses in the gas station nearby that doesn't distort the colors half as much.
- a fat, greasy, juicy, tasty half burned steak when I instead could have a vegetarian alternative that is at least thousand times healthier for my body.
- a ride in a smelly, loud and fuel consuming V8 American car just because there is a Japanese car that in every other measurable and conceivable aspect have superior measurements..."


i don't think anyone is saying that. i wish that folks would stop conflating objective headphone measurements with subjective perception and personal preference.

and i wouldn't mind a dollar for every time i've seen someone equating price with sonic performance and using car analogies to prove their point. :wink:
 
Nov 11, 2016 at 9:41 PM Post #964 of 2,196
  To everyone in this thread but especially @ Lan647 and ToroFiestaSol...
 
I think we all agree that in a perfect world, we should have great measurements and great sounds for a reasonable price.
 
However, in the real world (were we unfortunately live), measurements, and in particular for a headphone setup, isn't the only thing that matters since we all have different sizes & shapes of our heads, ears, ear canals and most importantly, different hearing defects.
 
I've owned the HD800 twice (the 2nd time with the Super DuPont mod) and I've also spent several weeks with the SR-009 but regardless how of well they measure, they just failed to move me.
 
The HD800/SR-009 just hurt my ears and after few minutes of listeninig (maybe ten to be generous) my mind started to drift and I began thinking that maybe I should be doing something else instead (like shoveling snow).
 
In can therefore, in all honestly, confess that in contrast to the superior measurements of the HD800/SR-009, I've never felt that I'd rather be shoveling snow than listening to the SEM1s...
 
That said, I wouldn't recommend the SEM1 as the one and only headphone since it's far from perfect but saying that someone cannot enjoy the SEM1s because there are other headphones that measures better (in a single setup that with close to 100% certainly does not in any way correspond to, or compensate for, my head, ears or hearing defects) is like saying that I cannot enjoy:
 
- a concert in a small crowded venue because the acoustics are bad compared to a reasonable mastered CD.
- a particular view since my expensive sunglasses exaggerate all the colors and there are some cheap sunglasses in the gas station nearby that doesn't distort the colors half as much.
- a fat, greasy, juicy, tasty half burned steak when I instead could have a vegetarian alternative that is at least thousand times healthier for my body.
- a ride in a smelly, loud and fuel consuming V8 American car just because there is a Japanese car that in every other measurable and conceivable aspect have superior measurements.
 
I could probably come up with more analogies but just to emphasize my point, I have a masters degree in theoretical physics as well as in electrical engineering and in spite of this, my recommendation is just to trust your ears much more than any measurements, reviews,expert opinions (or how expensive the equipment is) and instead follow your own musical taste, pleasure and personal satisfaction.
 
If you're happy with the sound of your $10 headphone or IEM, you shouldn't think that something is wrong with your hearing , you should instead consider yourself extremely lucky that you don't need to buy more expensive headphones to enjoy the music you like.
 
The only regret I have is really that I whish someone had told me that several hundred of wasted Euros ago...

 
Yes but are you paying 2500usd for that bad sounding concert or that well mixed and mastered CD? No, you're probably paying less than 20 dollars. That's my point.
 
Also, congratulations for disliking two of the brightest headphones ever!
I don't like them too, but hey, modded 007 or even an Audeze LCD-2, have very good measurements and sound spectacular.
In fact, 007 with port mod has even more detail than 009 but much smoother, linear and with better bass, I know we all hear different but even Bob Katz, listening to his own master in both headphones said: "You like 009? You must be deaf"
 
Do all analogies you want, but 2500 for that Pioneer thing is OVERPRICED, wire your ears with 5n pure silver if you want but I will not change my opinion.
 
Nov 11, 2016 at 10:09 PM Post #965 of 2,196
you're entitled to your opinion just as those who own and enjoy the se-master 1 are. i doubt that dissing it is going to change theirs tho. you said it yourself - "i know we all hear different", and that includes Bob Katz. :wink:
 
Nov 12, 2016 at 2:40 AM Post #966 of 2,196
 
Also, congratulations for disliking two of the brightest headphones ever!
I don't like them too, but hey, modded 007 or even an Audeze LCD-2, have very good measurements and sound spectacular.
In fact, 007 with port mod has even more detail than 009 but much smoother, linear and with better bass, I know we all hear different but even Bob Katz, listening to his own master in both headphones said: "You like 009? You must be deaf"

Sorry thats not true, i don´t understand how can be a serios headphone listener can make such statements! I have heard dozen of SR-007 (all versions, moded or unmoded) beside SR-009, finally the SR-009 is more controlled, cleaner and overall the better headphone in every regard! If you have a problem with SR-009 check your source and amp this is a very transparent not forgiving headphone and not for beginners! I don´t know Bob Katz but many highly decorated classic musicans they use the SR-009 for their work and are not "deaf".
 
Back to topic, how is the Pioneer Master 1 comparable to other headphones in this price range. I know most of the Top heaphones out there but i haven´t heard the Master 1. I prefer a very natural, balanced and clean sound signature with realistic bass and soundstage.
 
Nov 12, 2016 at 6:26 AM Post #969 of 2,196
  To everyone in this thread but especially @ Lan647 and ToroFiestaSol...
 
I think we all agree that in a perfect world, we should have great measurements and great sounds for a reasonable price.
 
However, in the real world (were we unfortunately live), measurements, and in particular for a headphone setup, isn't the only thing that matters since we all have different sizes & shapes of our heads, ears, ear canals and most importantly, different hearing defects.
 
I've owned the HD800 twice (the 2nd time with the Super DuPont mod) and I've also spent several weeks with the SR-009 but regardless how of well they measure, they just failed to move me.
 
The HD800/SR-009 just hurt my ears and after few minutes of listeninig (maybe ten to be generous) my mind started to drift and I began thinking that maybe I should be doing something else instead (like shoveling snow).
 
In can therefore, in all honestly, confess that in contrast to the superior measurements of the HD800/SR-009, I've never felt that I'd rather be shoveling snow than listening to the SEM1s...
 
That said, I wouldn't recommend the SEM1 as the one and only headphone since it's far from perfect but saying that someone cannot enjoy the SEM1s because there are other headphones that measures better (in a single setup that with close to 100% certainly does not in any way correspond to, or compensate for, my head, ears or hearing defects) is like saying that I cannot enjoy:
 
- a concert in a small crowded venue because the acoustics are bad compared to a reasonable mastered CD.
- a particular view since my expensive sunglasses exaggerate all the colors and there are some cheap sunglasses in the gas station nearby that doesn't distort the colors half as much.
- a fat, greasy, juicy, tasty half burned steak when I instead could have a vegetarian alternative that is at least thousand times healthier for my body.
- a ride in a smelly, loud and fuel consuming V8 American car just because there is a Japanese car that in every other measurable and conceivable aspect have superior measurements.
 
I could probably come up with more analogies but just to emphasize my point, I have a masters degree in theoretical physics as well as in electrical engineering and in spite of this, my recommendation is just to trust your ears much more than any measurements, reviews,expert opinions (or how expensive the equipment is) and instead follow your own musical taste, pleasure and personal satisfaction.
 
If you're happy with the sound of your $10 headphone or IEM, you shouldn't think that something is wrong with your hearing , you should instead consider yourself extremely lucky that you don't need to buy more expensive headphones to enjoy the music you like.
 
The only regret I have is really that I whish someone had told me that several hundred of wasted Euros ago...


I never claimed how measurements are the only thing that matters, but I did say they do not lie. :) I'm not qualified to make an in-depth statement of how the measured data corresponds directly to perceived sonic performance. But if there is a problem with a headphone, in all cases in my experience you can track it down to some kind of anomaly in the measurement data. While I rarely put so much spotlight onto measurements to support my arguments, in this case I think the measurements really do tell the whole story. And quite obviously so. There is just no denying the very poor measured performance of the SE-Master1, in just about every way. It's really not a preference thing whether or not they mean bad business, the preference issue is whether or not it matters to you personally. If it doesn't, cool. I just like to make people aware. 
 
While I'm not saying you should let measurement data tell you what to like or not, I don't think people should completely discard them either. Especially those who are at this time seriously considering cashing out for the Pioneer. 
 
 
  Sorry thats not true, i don´t understand how can be a serios headphone listener can make such statements! I have heard dozen of SR-007 (all versions, moded or unmoded) beside SR-009, finally the SR-009 is more controlled, cleaner and overall the better headphone in every regard! If you have a problem with SR-009 check your source and amp this is a very transparent not forgiving headphone and not for beginners! I don´t know Bob Katz but many highly decorated classic musicans they use the SR-009 for their work and are not "deaf".
 
Back to topic, how is the Pioneer Master 1 comparable to other headphones in this price range. I know most of the Top heaphones out there but i haven´t heard the Master 1. I prefer a very natural, balanced and clean sound signature with realistic bass and soundstage.



 

Also, as to your second paragraph, (no offense) you ask as if you expect a definitive, straight answer which will in any way be helpful to you. If you read up on the last two pages, you should know by now there is some intense polarization going on and be able to conclude that this isn't a case where you well get what you want. I, for one, can tell you that the Pioneer certainly does NOT fit your preferences. But I'm sure some will say the opposite, as always. 
 
Nov 12, 2016 at 6:42 AM Post #971 of 2,196
Maybe you should all take the measuements talk to the Abyss thread where people like to listen to total and utter crap that measures right.
It certainly has been informative enough for me, hearing that the Utopia measures right, is reviewed as good at innerfidelity and has been mentioned in one breath with the Abyss and LCD2 it spared me the effort and time of auditioning it. Probably just another fotm hype thing like the Ether last year.
 
Nov 12, 2016 at 7:08 AM Post #972 of 2,196
 
I prefer a very natural, balanced and clean sound signature with realistic bass and soundstage.


Run far far away!! Lol


The problem is i heard to many different opinions about the Pioneer Master 1. I have two friends with serios expensive headphone setups one say the Pioneer Master 1 is very bad and for his asked price a insolence and the other say the Pioneer is a very good sounding well made and balanced headphone and the asked price worth. I must say im interested in such a polisizing headphone, measurements and hypes of headphones are uninteresting for me i made the experience that the most prefered headphones like HD-800, HD-650, LCD-2/3 etc. are not my cup of tea.
 
Nov 12, 2016 at 8:01 AM Post #973 of 2,196
Maybe you should all take the measuements talk to the Abyss thread where people like to listen to total and utter crap that measures right.
It certainly has been informative enough for me, hearing that the Utopia measures right, is reviewed as good at innerfidelity and has been mentioned in one breath with the Abyss and LCD2 it spared me the effort and time of auditioning it. Probably just another fotm hype thing like the Ether last year.


the abyss measurements aren't stellar and don't resemble the utopia's or the lcd2's. if you're going to lump them all together on that basis then you'd be mistaken. i've not heard the utopia yet but the abyss and lcd-2 didn't sound alike to me.
 
Nov 12, 2016 at 9:01 AM Post #974 of 2,196
This thread gets better and better
jecklinsmile.gif
, like a civil war almost =)
 

Users who are viewing this thread

Back
Top