Pioneer's First Hi-End Headphones: SE-Master 1
Nov 9, 2016 at 1:24 PM Post #946 of 2,196
I certainly do not agree with the first two. I heard the Abyss and found it crappy at best.
I heard the SR009 and had the SR007MKII and never found them specal.
I had an LCD-XC and liked the LCD3 just as much but never as much as dynamics.
I've known for years now that dynamiuc phones are much more to my liking than orthos and electrostats.


OT:

What amp / Dac and streamer / music where the Abyss conncected to if i may ask ?
 
Nov 9, 2016 at 2:39 PM Post #948 of 2,196
Bryston dac an streamer and MacIntosh amp.


Okey then i will recommend a second listening before you deem them out on a better setup for example a Chord DAVE, because they scale with what you put in and the Macintosh amp A100 can not give them full potential because it is not transparent enough and does not got the power that the Abyss require unfortunately.

I use a Chord DAVE as DAC only, and been through almost every amp on the market and use the SimAudio Moon 600i Evo today for the ultimate sound.

So give them a try once again :wink:
 
Nov 9, 2016 at 4:19 PM Post #949 of 2,196
Okey then i will recommend a second listening before you deem them out on a better setup for example a Chord DAVE, because they scale with what you put in and the Macintosh amp A100 can not give them full potential because it is not transparent enough and does not got the power that the Abyss require unfortunately.

I use a Chord DAVE as DAC only, and been through almost every amp on the market and use the SimAudio Moon 600i Evo today for the ultimate sound.

So give them a try once again
wink.gif

 
 
No thanks, once was enough. My Marantz Dac with a Zana and Pioneer M1 are exactly to my taste.
As far as Chord goes, I heard the TT and didn't get what the hype was all about.
But the dull sounding Abyss can probably use a "transparent" (read bright) Dac or amp to compensate. 
I don't know the Simaudio but I had a GS-X MkII and sold it after a month as I didn't like the bright sound.
As far as amps are concerned I'm sticking with Eddie Current, had and heard enough others that to know both my Zana and BW top the rest of them for me.
 
Nov 9, 2016 at 5:43 PM Post #950 of 2,196
It is far from dull, but the amp you where listening to is a a smearing buttery dull amp, and do not do the abyss justice at all.

I was in my friends shop today with another friend who looking for a new pair of headphones , and we reviewed Senn 800S,
LCD-3 , LCD-X , LCD-4 , Pio Master 1 , and the Abyss, all on the same amp (Moon 430 dual mono 2x7 watt in 50 Ohms) with Roon server.

The Abyss is the fastest and most revealing headphone in the line up, and dull is an forging word i would not apply in the description of these headphones.

The Audeze LCD-3 are kind of dull yes.

The master 1 is a great headphone but not the ultimate, but top 4 i rank them. Then there is always a matter of taste as always.
 
Nov 10, 2016 at 8:46 AM Post #951 of 2,196
Fascinating shoot outs you guys are doing here. Whilst not much on topic it's quite helpful insights. Can I ask are all listening sessions only done in balanced mode?

It's great that many options work giving oth re those options to discover what works for them.
 
Nov 10, 2016 at 8:50 AM Post #952 of 2,196
The Abyss certainly has its strengths (impact, dynamism) but the treble disrupts the coherency of the sound, and the comfort/build is absolutely awful for a $5000 headphone. Hard, stiff, heavy and just an abomination to wear. But I can certainly understand why some like it, it is a unique sound in several ways.

BUT this Pioneer bullcrap, I don't understand how one can like. It's absolute garbage and I must say, if you think that's the optimal representation of music, you are seriously out on lost waters. Please do try and spend some more time with higher performing headphones like the STAX, LCDs, HD800S, Utopia etc to properly adjust to them and to get an understanding of just how messed up is the sound of the Pioneer. Some people seem surprised it's not so popular/endorsed and blame marketing. Well I blame the bad sound. Mark my words, it won't be long until Pioneer discontinues this headphone. 
 
I think people are just consumed by the "new kid on the block"-hype and to hear something which sounds so markedly different to more popular headphones, same goes with the ED10 for example. Suddenly the Pioneer is the reference and other headphones lacking its distorted, muddy ("warm?!") bass and bright, metallic ("exciting?!) treble suddenly sound dull and boring. 
 
Before y'all bash me completely, check out measurements. Innerfidelity has em and they are not biased and they do not lie. Frequency response clearly shows an overabundance of treble with some horrific spikes going on. Also note the big, broad 100hz bump which clearly indicates a lower mid coloration. And let's not even get into the severe ringing going on, or the ludicrous bass distorsion. 
 
"But measurements don't translate to what I hear, it's what I hear that matters!" - For you maybe, doesn't mean you're right. 

"Obviously something wrong with that unit as mine doesn't sound like that at all." - Yeah that must be it! No. No company would never send out faulty review units, it's an absolutely terrible marketing strategy. And while changes may have been made since Tyll's measurement data was published, I highly doubt it. This is obviously a very poorly engineered and implemented driver which would need to be reengineered to make the product sound any good. 

Also know that the staff in one of my more local audio stores selling the them even admit that they're ****.
 
To people actively reading this page who are interested in this headphone, save your money. You're welcome!
 
Nov 10, 2016 at 4:01 PM Post #953 of 2,196
The Abyss certainly has its strengths (impact, dynamism) but the treble disrupts the coherency of the sound, and the comfort/build is absolutely awful for a $5000 headphone. Hard, stiff, heavy and just an abomination to wear. But I can certainly understand why some like it, it is a unique sound in several ways.


BUT this Pioneer bullcrap, I don't understand how one can like. It's absolute garbage and I must say, if you think that's the optimal representation of music, you are seriously out on lost waters. Please do try and spend some more time with higher performing headphones like the STAX, LCDs, HD800S, Utopia etc to properly adjust to them and to get an understanding of just how messed up is the sound of the Pioneer. Some people seem surprised it's not so popular/endorsed and blame marketing. Well I blame the bad sound. Mark my words, it won't be long until Pioneer discontinues this headphone. 

I think people are just consumed by the "new kid on the block"-hype and to hear something which sounds so markedly different to more popular headphones, same goes with the ED10 for example. Suddenly the Pioneer is the reference and other headphones lacking its distorted, muddy ("warm?!") bass and bright, metallic ("exciting?!) treble suddenly sound dull and boring. 

Before y'all bash me completely, check out measurements. Innerfidelity has em and they are not biased and they do not lie. Frequency response clearly shows an overabundance of treble with some horrific spikes going on. Also note the big, broad 100hz bump which clearly indicates a lower mid coloration. And let's not even get into the severe ringing going on, or the ludicrous bass distorsion. 

"But measurements don't translate to what I hear, it's what I hear that matters!" - For you maybe, doesn't mean you're right. 


"Obviously something wrong with that unit as mine doesn't sound like that at all." - Yeah that must be it! No. No company would never send out faulty review units, it's an absolutely terrible marketing strategy. And while changes may have been made since Tyll's measurement data was published, I highly doubt it. This is obviously a very poorly engineered and implemented driver which would need to be reengineered to make the product sound any good. 


Also know that the staff in one of my more local audio stores selling the them even admit that they're ****.

To people actively reading this page who are interested in this headphone, save your money. You're welcome!


I dont defend the Pioneer at all, or other brands with poor measuring, but one thing your forget is that all speaker / headphone companies does not always want a perfect linear frequency response even if they could, because they want their own house sound
(Sound design) .
So it is easy, do you want a analythic Linear headphone guys, then just buy a HD800s or a Utopia, case closed. = Boaring headphones in my opinion, so a perfect mesurment does not always move you like it seems on paper.

And not everyone like this linear sound, thats why we have te opportunity to find our own favourite.

The Stax SR-007 Mk1 for example is far from perfect, but if you like them, then everyone is happy for you.



Back to topic.,
 
Nov 10, 2016 at 4:29 PM Post #954 of 2,196
  The Abyss certainly has its strengths (impact, dynamism) but the treble disrupts the coherency of the sound, and the comfort/build is absolutely awful for a $5000 headphone. Hard, stiff, heavy and just an abomination to wear. But I can certainly understand why some like it, it is a unique sound in several ways.

BUT this Pioneer bullcrap, I don't understand how one can like. It's absolute garbage and I must say, if you think that's the optimal representation of music, you are seriously out on lost waters. Please do try and spend some more time with higher performing headphones like the STAX, LCDs, HD800S, Utopia etc to properly adjust to them and to get an understanding of just how messed up is the sound of the Pioneer. Some people seem surprised it's not so popular/endorsed and blame marketing. Well I blame the bad sound. Mark my words, it won't be long until Pioneer discontinues this headphone. 
 
I think people are just consumed by the "new kid on the block"-hype and to hear something which sounds so markedly different to more popular headphones, same goes with the ED10 for example. Suddenly the Pioneer is the reference and other headphones lacking its distorted, muddy ("warm?!") bass and bright, metallic ("exciting?!) treble suddenly sound dull and boring. 
 
Before y'all bash me completely, check out measurements. Innerfidelity has em and they are not biased and they do not lie. Frequency response clearly shows an overabundance of treble with some horrific spikes going on. Also note the big, broad 100hz bump which clearly indicates a lower mid coloration. And let's not even get into the severe ringing going on, or the ludicrous bass distorsion. 
 
"But measurements don't translate to what I hear, it's what I hear that matters!" - For you maybe, doesn't mean you're right. 

"Obviously something wrong with that unit as mine doesn't sound like that at all." - Yeah that must be it! No. No company would never send out faulty review units, it's an absolutely terrible marketing strategy. And while changes may have been made since Tyll's measurement data was published, I highly doubt it. This is obviously a very poorly engineered and implemented driver which would need to be reengineered to make the product sound any good. 

Also know that the staff in one of my more local audio stores selling the them even admit that they're ****.
 
To people actively reading this page who are interested in this headphone, save your money. You're welcome!

 
 
Well, I love the Pioneer, hate the Abyss, found Stax nothing special and although I liked 2 of the LCD's they didn't match up to the M1 IMO. I had the HD800 as well, not bad but lacks bass and too sharp highs. Spatial, yes but maybe too much?
 
So only your opinion is the right one it seems?
It's just your opinion, nothing more. And innerfidelity? Like many others I'll keep my thoughts to myself, read up in this thread and a few others.
 
And there is not enough marketing for the Pioneer and it's a hype? It's one or the other ...
 
Nov 10, 2016 at 5:44 PM Post #955 of 2,196
  The Abyss certainly has its strengths (impact, dynamism) but the treble disrupts the coherency of the sound, and the comfort/build is absolutely awful for a $5000 headphone. Hard, stiff, heavy and just an abomination to wear. But I can certainly understand why some like it, it is a unique sound in several ways.

BUT this Pioneer bullcrap, I don't understand how one can like. It's absolute garbage and I must say, if you think that's the optimal representation of music, you are seriously out on lost waters. Please do try and spend some more time with higher performing headphones like the STAX, LCDs, HD800S, Utopia etc to properly adjust to them and to get an understanding of just how messed up is the sound of the Pioneer. Some people seem surprised it's not so popular/endorsed and blame marketing. Well I blame the bad sound. Mark my words, it won't be long until Pioneer discontinues this headphone. 
 
I think people are just consumed by the "new kid on the block"-hype and to hear something which sounds so markedly different to more popular headphones, same goes with the ED10 for example. Suddenly the Pioneer is the reference and other headphones lacking its distorted, muddy ("warm?!") bass and bright, metallic ("exciting?!) treble suddenly sound dull and boring. 
 
Before y'all bash me completely, check out measurements. Innerfidelity has em and they are not biased and they do not lie. Frequency response clearly shows an overabundance of treble with some horrific spikes going on. Also note the big, broad 100hz bump which clearly indicates a lower mid coloration. And let's not even get into the severe ringing going on, or the ludicrous bass distorsion. 
 
"But measurements don't translate to what I hear, it's what I hear that matters!" - For you maybe, doesn't mean you're right. 

"Obviously something wrong with that unit as mine doesn't sound like that at all." - Yeah that must be it! No. No company would never send out faulty review units, it's an absolutely terrible marketing strategy. And while changes may have been made since Tyll's measurement data was published, I highly doubt it. This is obviously a very poorly engineered and implemented driver which would need to be reengineered to make the product sound any good. 

Also know that the staff in one of my more local audio stores selling the them even admit that they're ****.
 
To people actively reading this page who are interested in this headphone, save your money. You're welcome!

 
Totally agree with you!
Also, don't forget the price of this headphone (2500usd!)
For that price, one expects not only good measurements, but also excellent sound.
 
From an interview to YG, one of the best speaker manufacturers:
 
"Also, sometimes during the design process one encounters a situation where component A sounds better, but component B measures flatter. The standard industry approach is to just use component A, and claim that “measurements do not tell the whole story”. This is not our way at YG Acoustics – when this kind of conflict occurs, we perform further research until we fully understand the phenomenon. Then, we design a component C which sounds and measures better than both A and B. We do not stop the design process until everything fulfills those criteria."
 
For a component of this price, we, customers, should not be chosing between "good sound, bad measurements" or "bad sound, good measurements", we should get the component C "great sound, great measurements".
 
Bad measurements and good sound is good for a 200usd headphone, but for a 2500usd one? No way.
 
Nov 11, 2016 at 12:39 PM Post #956 of 2,196
A long sentence.


Not trying to be an ass, but why do you care how a product measures? You can't hear measurements and just because something measures well doesn't correlate 1:1 to it having excellent musical enjoyment and "being there".

What use are measurements to anyone but an engineer that's using them to help himself make adjustments to the sound signature during the design, development, and tuning stage?

I'm not pro 1 camp or the other, but I can't say that I have ever actively sought out a product that measured well just because it did or used a product's measurement results to help chose between product A and product B when I could only buy 1...

As for your view on the SEM1, cool. I hope you enjoy owning all of those other headphones and that they bring you musical enjoyment. I also hope that when you sold your SEM1 you got good resale value on it and helped finance the purchase of all those other headphones.

The rest of us here that own multiple headphones and seem to be semi-experienced in what good sound can sound like, we seem to enjoy what the SEM1 brings. Whether exclusively or not.
 
Nov 11, 2016 at 1:47 PM Post #957 of 2,196
Not trying to be an ass, but why do you care how a product measures? You can't hear measurements and just because something measures well doesn't correlate 1:1 to it having excellent musical enjoyment and "being there".

What use are measurements to anyone but an engineer that's using them to help himself make adjustments to the sound signature during the design, development, and tuning stage?

I'm not pro 1 camp or the other, but I can't say that I have ever actively sought out a product that measured well just because it did or used a product's measurement results to help chose between product A and product B when I could only buy 1...

As for your view on the SEM1, cool. I hope you enjoy owning all of those other headphones and that they bring you musical enjoyment. I also hope that when you sold your SEM1 you got good resale value on it and helped finance the purchase of all those other headphones.

The rest of us here that own multiple headphones and seem to be semi-experienced in what good sound can sound like, we seem to enjoy what the SEM1 brings. Whether exclusively or not.

 
Because good measurements equals good engineering, I would feel ripped off if I spend 2500usd on a headphone that only "sounds good".
This is like a 250.000usd sports car, or a 50.000usd speaker, one expects excellence because you're paying excellence. I wouldn't complain if this headphone costs 500usd, but, for that price is a total rip off.
 
We must be more demanding and less tolerant with this kind of things, because that's the reason of 3k DACs being marginally better than 500usd ones, or 2k headphones being slightly better than 1k ones (this happens with any audio product), that things happen because we tolerate them.
 
Nov 11, 2016 at 3:09 PM Post #958 of 2,196
 
Bad measurements and good sound is good for a 200usd headphone, but for a 2500usd one? No way.

 
No, that's still wrong. The HD6XX from Massdrop is 200 usd and has good measurements and great sound. This headphone is worth 100 usd tops. I'm also tired of junk being peddled at increasingly higher prices and prompting everyone else in the industry to raise their prices to follow suit. The Utopia is the only headphone in recent times that seems to be trying to push the state-of-the-art further, despite it being heavily overpriced. The rest are offering different flavours (read: flaws) or variations of the same sound signatures, and slapping on a higher price-tag. This Pioneer headphone is a cynical attempt to ride on the coat-tails of the established manufacturers and their escalating price-war.
 
Nov 11, 2016 at 3:12 PM Post #959 of 2,196
Because good measurements equals good engineering.


I don't agree with that, but if that's your stance that's cool.

Like there's no definitive answer on what a perfect measurement is, so saying is measures badly isn't as clear as with a mechanical or electronic device like a DAC or amp.

Anyway, to save the dead horse further abuse, I think your position is clear and that's great.
 
Nov 11, 2016 at 3:31 PM Post #960 of 2,196
So, if to me the M1 sounds better than the Grado PS1000e, the Sennheiser HD800S, and various other top tier cans, does that mean that my ears are faulty?

....Guess I'd better get my ears upgraded...
 

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