[NotJeffBuckley]

Quote:

Originally Posted by HiWire I probably have mild tinnitus from my early years of amateur Head-Fi: listening to crappy stock Panasonic headphones and earbuds and Koss earbuds from various cassette/radio walkmans from the late '80s through the '90s. Another contributor was listening to my Sennheisers in bed... I now believe that listening to headphones in sleep at moderate volumes is a bad idea. I've often woken up near the end of an album and wondered how it got so loud... hearing must get more acute at night. Now my ears ring when I listen to my old Senns... must be the excessive bass or turning up the volume to enhance the weak mids.

The human hearing curve is such that turning up the volume would actually recess the mids and bring out the bass and highs (relatively speaking), rather than the other way around.

 

[Albatross05]

Quote:

Originally Posted by HiWire I probably have mild tinnitus from my early years of amateur Head-Fi: listening to crappy stock Panasonic headphones and earbuds and Koss earbuds from various cassette/radio walkmans from the late '80s through the '90s. Another contributor was listening to my Sennheisers in bed... I now believe that listening to headphones in sleep at moderate volumes is a bad idea. I've often woken up near the end of an album and wondered how it got so loud... hearing must get more acute at night. Now my ears ring when I listen to my old Senns... must be the excessive bass or turning up the volume to enhance the weak mids.

Yes....the duration is definitely important. Probably more than the volume even. I used to work at a factory that had constant noise from the machines. The noise wasn't very loud (At all. Nowehere near as loud as I play my headphones) but we were required to wear earplugs because of the length of time we were exposed to the noise (9 hours).

While they were clearly just being cautious...it's a safe bet that those requirements started after people in noisy work environments started experiencing hearing loss.

The packaging on most headphones I've bought over the years warns against extended listening even at moderate volume and suggests taking a break after a certain amount of time. It also usually suggests selecting a comfortable listening level at the beginning of your listening session and leaving it there, resisting the (almost irresistable) temptation to increase the volume after a time. These are probably good rules to follow. After all...if even the manufacturers of headphones tell you to be careful, you can bet there's a risk (they don't want to get sued for not warning you).

 

[boschtb]

I have read this thread with great interest, as I have recently concluded that regardless of what the research shows, I do not believe that all sound is equal in terms of causing damage. For several years I had a listening room with a speaker setup. I could listen for hours at a time with no problems whatsoever. When I switched to headphones, I made a decision at the outset to listen at quiet volumes to protect my hearing (around 70db). All went well for sometime with my HD650s until I noticed that my ears hurt in the elevator to my office after several days of extended listening. After cutting back my listening to 1 hour a day max, the problem appeared to be solved.
When I needed closed headphones for portable use and use around the house outside of my main listening room, I went with the UM2s and decided to listen at even lower volumes (less than 70db). Almost immediately, I noticed that after even relatively short listening sessions my ears (particularly my right ear) hurt and I would also sometimes experience ringing in my ears. At first I thought the problem was one of physical comfort with the tips, because the problem was the worst after using the modified tri-flange, which also happened to be the most unconfortable. Halfway into a weeklong Thanksgiving trip, I developed such a bad ear ache and ringing that I didn't listen to any music for over a week. I thought I had the problem solved with the Shure clearflex sleave, which was very comfortable, and suffered no ill-effects after three days of listening for about an hour per day during Christmas travel, but on the fourth day, the aching and the ringing returned. I have now decided to use my UM2s only for very short durations on plane trips and to switch to using my KSC75, which doesn't cause many problems, in less noisy situations, even if I lose some of the details.

I am now considering picking up a pair of A900LTDs, for use around the house when I need a little bit of isolation or when I don't want to annoy my wife. The bottom line for me, however, is that I can't tolerate headphones for extended periods of time, even at volumes considerably lower than what I could tolerate with speakers for hours on end.

 

[Mercuttio]

I've only really been listening to headphones for a few years (I'm only 23) and hi-fi headphones for approximately two years. I'm deathly afraid of tinnitus, and once every few months a slight ringing is in my ear, seemingly due to atmospheric change or a change in altitude. Very light, kind of like a TV somewhere was flipped on. It only lasts for a second, and dissapears quickly... am I doing something wrong with my headphones? I listen at seemingly reasonable volumes, and really only to Beyerdynamic now. Since my primary portable cans are closed, I've been listening to music at a much more quiet volume (the 770-80) and have sworn off of any open headphone in public and loud places.

My ears have become so much more enjoyably sensitive to music over the past two years, am I doing the right things to keep my ears in good shape?

 

[mulveling]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mercuttio I've only really been listening to headphones for a few years (I'm only 23) and hi-fi headphones for approximately two years. I'm deathly afraid of tinnitus, and once every few months a slight ringing is in my ear, seemingly due to atmospheric change or a change in altitude. Very light, kind of like a TV somewhere was flipped on. It only lasts for a second, and dissapears quickly... am I doing something wrong with my headphones? I listen at seemingly reasonable volumes, and really only to Beyerdynamic now. Since my primary portable cans are closed, I've been listening to music at a much more quiet volume (the 770-80) and have sworn off of any open headphone in public and loud places. My ears have become so much more enjoyably sensitive to music over the past two years, am I doing the right things to keep my ears in good shape?

As long as you're not using headphones several hours a day, it sounds like you're probably taking good care of yourself (at least your ears). Everyone's ears are different and some will be more prone to hearing damage than others, even given equal exposure. If you start noticing problems then you may be one of the unlucky ones, though chances are you'll be fine.

The once-in-a while phenomenon you describe is normal and nearly eveyone experiences it. Also, nearly everyone has ringing or buzzing in their ears to some degree. I've had a faint buzzing, only audible in a quiet room, since I was a kid - way before being exposed to loud noises (to my knowledge).

When it comes to hearing, some paranoia is good, but don't take the paranoia too far

 

[mulveling]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blitzula Yes, it could theoretically be that I had absolutely no symptoms of hearing loss, pain, or ringing, and then-coincidentally or through some twist of fate or cumulative use-a year of headphone use exactly coincides with a complete change of circumstance. I wouldn't bet on that though.

Right, clearly all the loud concerts in the past had NO effect. It's obviously coincidence that we're seeing that pattern pop up repeatedly

There may be something about the Grados, though - seems to be a relatively high rate of complaints from Grado lovers. I wonder whether choice of pads has any effect on this? Also wonder if the hp series may not share this problem - they seemed pretty low in fatigue to me.

 

[Mercuttio]

Great! I just want to listen to headphones for a long time... I've probably got at least 50 years with these ears, and I want to keep them happy. Honestly, it seems like the smartest thing I've done is wear my Beyer 770-80s around in public... funny looks, safe delightful sound.

 

[AlanY]

Pete Townshend is deluding himself if he thinks his stage performances had no impact on this. The sound pressure level on stage is the same as the sound pressure level the audience is exposed to, for all frequencies below the baffle step (and above that as well, in enclosed arenas). It just seems quieter on stage because high frequencies are more directional, particularly with the horns used on pro gear.

How many nights did he spend performing on stage? Thousands? How many recordings has he made? A dozen? How many days in the studio does that work out to? Less than 150, most likely. Even if that estimate is low, he spent an order of magnitude more nights performing on stage than he ever spent in the studio.

He's a musician, not a master of logic, obviously.

That said, people do tend to listen to headphones louder than they listen to speakers (because of lower distortion, no neighbors or co-workers being bothered, etc.) and for longer periods of time. So headphones can definitely be very dangerous.

 

[squall2072]

I've had a funny couple of weeks with the RS-1's. I'll start off by saying I listen low. Shure E4c's at 5 on the iriver H320 (goes to 40) and when I stick the SR-225's into it they go on at 10.

I've had the RS-1's for about 3 weeks now but this started just before then. I'll also say that when I first got the SR-225's I was listening (low) for a long time. It was summer break and I was listenning to my first proper pair of headphones. I've never had a problem with the SR-225's but I noticed a few weeks ago I had a ringing in my left ear.

Didn't bother me. Before you slam me, its because I've always had the kind of static noise in my ears since I was a kid. I'm taking about something I can only hear a night when the only other thing I can hear is the blood going through my ear.

OK, so this little ringing slowly crept up on me and ONLY in my left ear. Thing is that it was a 2 tone ring! I'm used to going to clubs and coming out with the tinnitus until I fall asleep, all of my mates get this (which is why I don't go out to the clubs as much as them) but its only the pure tone ringing. This was different, an up down ring that seemed to go between them sometimes at random, other times if I smiled it would go to the low tone and (very strangely) it would change as I looked at different images on my phone (different brightnesses??

).

This all hit a peak on 30th dec 2005. I'd been listening for about 2-3 hours and I could hear it when I turned the amp down. Straight away I hung up the phones and went to bed. Next morning it was still there and I could hear it when it was quiet and when I was concentrating on it.

After this I took 2 Days away (probably the first 2 days since August) completely.. 2nd day I cheated (couldn't take it anymore) I had 4 songs. By the 3rd day. It was gone completely.

I couldn't believe it, I was so happy because I was bricking it. I've listened (in shorter lengths) to them and I've had no trouble. It seems that all I needed was a couple of days rest. Even though its hard its something I plan to do just to give my ears a break.

Seriously it was bloody scary thinging I might have to put up with the 2 tone tinnitus. If it was one tone it would be easier (not good in any way).

Well thats my story, read it to your kids at night to scare them from the ipod monster!

(Your thoughts on the 2 tone tinnitus would be nice, I also have a ringing in my left ear when I open my jaw to the right and only then!

... don't know why!)

 

[Blitzula]

Quote:

Originally Posted by mulveling Right, clearly all the loud concerts in the past had NO effect. It's obviously coincidence that we're seeing that pattern pop up repeatedly

I figured when I posted my concert attendance, someone would reflexively contribute my problems to that. You can roll your eyes, but I had absolutely no symptoms before I used headphones. The coincidence you seem to be discounting is the headphone use, which-miraculously!-coincides with my problems exactly.

I certainly would recommend using earplugs at a concert...I do so myself now. You could certainly damage your hearing at a concert that's too loud, even just one.

 

[Febs]

The fact that Pete claims that he didn't hear ringing in his ears after Who shows really doesn't mean anything. Ringing in the ears following exposure to high SPLs is a clear indicator of potential hearing loss, but hearing damage can occur without ringing in the ears.

I've been a musician for 25 years, and I've played thousands of gigs in all sorts of venues, and many different styles of music. After I developed a problem with tinnitus, I saw an ENT doctor, who confirmed that I had mild hearing loss in the 4kHz range--that's indicative of noise induced hearing loss. I started carrying a SPL meter with me to gigs and rehearsals.

I measured the SPL of an orchestra pit for a professional theater production I was playing at the time. I knew that orchestra was loud--the musicians who did not wear earplugs complained of ringing in the ears after shows--but I was somewhat surprised to find that we at the times reached peak SPLs of 108dB, and were in the 90 dB range most of the time. I was really shocked however, to find that my band reaches the same peak SPL at its rehearsals, and while I haven't yet had the opportunity to measure one of our gigs, I am certain that we are often louder on-stage than at rehearsal.

For the theater production, each show lasted 2 hours, and we played 7 shows per week--14 hours of exposure every week. My band rehearses for 2 hours a week, and perform between 2 and 5 gigs in a typical month. All of this is in addition to headphone listening as well as noise that I am exposed to day in and day out, like traffic noise, the sound of the subway, noise on airplanes (I travel frequently for work), etc.

I now use either custom-molded muscian's earplugs or an IEM system at every gig and rehearsal that I have play. While it is extremely difficult to tell what SPL level I am exposed to from the IEMs during a gig, I am certain that the IEMs expose me to a MUCH lower SPL than using floor monitors.

Getting back to Pete Townsend, as I mentioned, I was surprised to find that my performances and rehearsals exposed me to such a high SPL. Even so, there is no way that we played anywhere near as loud as the Who played. I don't know if this is still true, but I do know that for a long period of time, The Who had an entry in the Guiness Book of World Records for being the loudest rock band in history, and if I remember correctly, some of their concerts measured as high as 120dB. That's really loud. I think that the OSHA guideline for exposure to that SPL is something like 15 minutes per day. Even if it is true that the level of the Who's stage monitors was less than the volume in the house (and my experience that is not always true), Pete was undoubtedly exposed to dangerously high SPLs for extended periods of time during the days that the Who was touring.

Do I believe that the use of headphones in the studio contributed to Pete's hearing loss? Absolutely. But I just don't see how he can discount the effects of so many years of exposure to dangerously high SPLs during performances.

 

[matt8268]

For me, there have times with headphones and speakers where my ears have hurt after 15 minutes of listening or so. It is almost always the same thing, though, which is that I am listening too loud, or that the balance of the music (high,mid,low) is off. Personally I haven't (yet) had any problems from prolonged listening, as long as it was at moderate volume. I don't measure the volume, but by definition moderate for me means a level at which I don't have any headache after hours of listening.

I think what kills your ears is mids. That is what will fatigue me and make me want to turn off music. This makes sense, as our hearing system has evolved to tune into voices, all of which operate in the midrange frequencies. I had a car system with a midrange that was too powerful and I could barely stand to turn it up. That's why most car systems back way off the mids and emphasize bass and treble (or their users adjust it this way with the EQ). Is it possible that those who have hearing problems are getting excessive mids, and perhaps don't have the defensive mechanism I have that tells me it's too loud? In other words, can some of you turn up mid-heavy music and not get a headache? Not trying to be snooty, I may very well develop problems later in life (I'm 33 now) and have very different things to say.

 

[Xoton]

Notice he said STUDIO use. I switched to Etys after I noticed how disgustingly loud my phones would get while recording. I used to drum with crap phones on. I know. F'ing dumb. But in general, the level of focus and need-for-feeling was the culprite for cranking it up, 95% of the time. The loud external sounds, and not just the drumming, were a problem, absolutely...but also for some reason, in the studio, you focus and crank. And then comes take two...and you crank it higher. AND YOU DO IT FOR UNGODLY DURATIONS. 6+ hours. Cranked. And you don't take breaks. Sh-t, I'm sure if it was my career, like the case with Townsend, he probably did millions of marathon 16, 20+ hour sessions. Weeks on end. That's insane.

And no, concerts weren't a help. I mean, c'mon. But still, the studio,...I mean how many intense and break-free studio sessions do you think this guy did over 40 years? That'll kill ya. Period. Forget the concerts...you don't need em'...the concerts were probably a break!!!

But in general...DEFINITELY keep it low and take breaks every once in awhile. The best thing about taking a break is, when you come back, you can hear just how loud you had it. That'll help with gaining some perspective on safe levels.

Also I'm inclined to think that Ety's, in theory are safer...as they say on their site-- you can listen at lower volumes with less noise from the outside fighting you. But just because you can, doesn't mean you do...I still probably have my Etys too loud at times. And coupled with their proximity to my ear,...well...I take breaks. Cause I can.

And don't get down on the H'Fi. If it weren't for this place I'd still be cranking sh-t phones. And low-fi sources to boot. Awareness is key. And spend money on good equipment, cause even if this is ALL BAD...you may as well "drink the good stuff" right?

Hell ya.

 

[greenhorn]

Are there other well known (rock) musicians experiencing similar (hearing loss) problems?

 

[allenf]

Pete spent a long time in studios - he was very well known as a demo-hound.
I can't believe he would put it down mainly to cans just to make a relevant and meaningful statement to the iPod generation.