PCB manufaturer recommendations ?
Jul 29, 2003 at 2:16 AM Thread Starter Post #1 of 18

gurevise

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Guys,
I would like to create my own PCB design for headphone amp.
Can you recommend a company that can make PCB's based on given electronic artwork layout files? Let me know.

Thanks
Sergey
 
Jul 30, 2003 at 1:41 AM Post #4 of 18
The two that I regularly use for prototypes and small production runs, and which I have nothing but excellent service from, are:

Imagineering

Advanced Circuits

The latter company has a design-rules checking service - FreeDFM - that does a pretty good job of catching "manufacturing" errors (those that make it difficult to create a functioning board, like annular ring violations, traces between pads, etc...)

ExpressPCB is the general purpose recommendation around here, but I advice against using their service not only because their prices are not particularly good, but because I don't think much of the board layout software that is used in conjunction (lockstep?) with their service.

Cheap-but-excellent board layout software, that is also easy to learn (which can't be said of most of the offerings in this arena!) is Proteus Lite .

Eagle also seems to be a good program, and equally a good deal as Proteus - I just happened to go with one, not the other - but with the added advantage that some board manufacturers will take Eagle files directly without requiring they be converted into Gerber/Excellon files first. Given that advantage, you may very well want to give a closer look at Eagle.

Good luck - once you get your first boards back, you'll wonder why you ever balked at paying so much to have them made
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Jul 30, 2003 at 4:30 AM Post #6 of 18
Custom PCB are very nice to deal with, very cheap and are quick, however the quality of their boards is flakey. I had major grief with some boards I've ordered from them as on every one in the batch there would be several vias that either didn't really connect or failed with even a tiny bit of current flowing through. Debugging such boards is a nightmare. They did switch the plating method right at that time and I'm guessing that during transition they made some bad boards. They might be ok now - if everybody had problems I had they'd either switch the method back or go out of business...

I ordered from Olimex, boards were very cheap and of very nice quality (my avatar) but it took 4 weeks to get the boards - though it's postal service fault, but the end result is still a month wait. Courier cost is US$55 which is of course usually much more than the boards themselves and then it doesn't look any cheaper than a local, fast hourse.

I also used local company called Omnigraph

http://www.omnigraph.com/index1.html

They are an older, established company that will e.g. make 12 layer boards with low tolerances, or basically just about anything - 2 layer boards are probably a joke for them - and their quality is superb. Price isn't bad either, for a North American company. But dealing with them is a bit hard, strangely enough.
You have to ask for a quote in a fairly manual e-mail process. And then, I still haven't received refund for about $70 they overcharged me back in February (I specifically stated no silkscreen in readme file as they require you to do, got a call to confirm that since I provided silkscreen layers in order for them to have a reference point, boards came fine but the invoice was still calculated as if there was silkcreen... several phone calls and emails later even though they immediately acknowledged pricing error, never got refund, though I did get an official looking invoice stating a refund, no check or refund back to my CC though and that is what actually counts of course).
 
Jul 30, 2003 at 5:05 AM Post #7 of 18
[size=medium]Software[/size]

[size=small]ExpressPCB[/size]

Ease of use: Probably the easiest to learn software you'll ever find. It's not the most powerful by any stretch of the imagination, but it sufficed for the PPA. Nuff said?

Price: Free. Hard to argue against that.

[size=small]Eagle[/size]

Ease of use: Not nearly as straightforward as ExpressPCB, and the difficulties are not solely due to the fact that it has more features. It's just plain not as easy to use.

For instance, making new components is much harder. Also, to send the board file to someone else you have to send your components separately. With ExpressPCB, a copy of the components goes as part of the file. The advantage of the Eagle method is that you can change all the parts of a type on the board by editing the library. Because each instance of a part is embedded into the document with ExpressPCB, you have to manually cut-and-paste replace all of the parts to change them.

Another example is the command line: Eagle has one, ExpressPCB does not. A command line gives you a lot of power and lets you work much faster when you're used to it, but it's a big learning hurdle to get over. ExpressPCB puts everything on menus or makes you double-click and get a dialog box to change anything. It's easier to learn the program that way, but there's a lot of fixed UI navigation overhead that you can't get around once you no longer need the UI.

jeffreyj mentioned that many board houses will accept Eagle files. To the extent that it is true, it does make it an easier package to use than other standard CAD packages. But, I've had a couple of instances where the board house would screw something up if I didn't send them Gerbers. So, I no longer send Eagle files to board houses. I make Gerbers and check them locally before sending them off to be sure it's done right. By contrast, with ExpressPCB it's as close to WYSIWYG as PCB manufacturing will ever get. There are some differences in real life vs. what you saw on the screen, but they're consistent enough variances that you can plan for them.

Price: A stripped-down version of the software is available for free, with better versions for a fee. It ranges from relatively inexpensive to fairly spendy. As CAD software goes, though, it's still not too expensive. About the same price range as the professional Proteus line.

Board prices depend on where you get your boards. A very wide range here, mainly depending on quality and where the boards are manufactured.

Features: Eagle is capable of producing much more finely-tuned board layouts than ExpressPCB. You have infinite choices of hole, trace and pad sizes, you can get multi-layer versions of the software, it's reasonable to work down at very small scales, it can do copper pours and other advanced features, etc. Using all those features can limit your choices of board houses, but you'll still have choices, something you can't say for ExpressPCB.

[size=small]PCB123[/size]

I won't say much about this, but it's clear they're an ExpressPCB wannabe without the chops to back it up. Their software is difficult to use without being powerful. Until these guys improve dramatically, stay away. Since they've been making a lackluster release every several months, I don't think you should hold your breath. I can see these guys quietly slipping beneath the waves of oblivion.



[size=medium]Board Houses[/size]

[size=small]ExpressPCB[/size]

Ease of use: You can get price quotes and order from within the CAD program. I don't see how anyone could make this process easier. Slick, slick, slick.

Price: Reasonable, for a US-based board house, especially if you can use their Miniboard service. For other short runs, it's probably less expensive to go elsewhere, but there's still the convenience factor of being able to quote boards and order directly from within the software. For large runs, it's definitely better to go elsewhere. Take into account the lock-in factor: once you do your protos in ExpressPCB, there's a tremendous temptation to do production runs in it, too. With other packages, you can move to another board house easily.

Quality: Good. Not the best I've ever seen, but far from the worst.

[size=small]Advanced Circuits[/size]

Ease of use: Their FreeDFM tool is great, and they have online quoting. The ordering process is smooth, though not as slick as ExpressPCB's. They have real humans at the other end of the line you can talk to. Indeed, after your first order, their sales droids will start calling you after each subsequent quote to ensure that they keep getting orders.
smily_headphones1.gif


Price: Similar or worse in price to ExpressPCB for short runs, better for long runs. Also, there are big discounts on re-orders, whereas it's the same price for every run with ExpressPCB.

Quality: Excellent. I suspect they could reliably make PC motherboards if they wanted to. (6-8 layers, pad and trace pitch much smaller than ExpressPCB even allows you to think about, unplated holes, etc.)

[size=small]Olimex[/size]

Ease of use: Quotes take an email turnaround. Unless you're in Europe, this usually means a day's wait. They happen to be 8 hours away from me, which means they're ending their business day when I'm starting mine. They have enough price info on their web site that you can calculate the cost yourself, so it's not that bad, but ordering still has to go through this turnaround delay because they email you a custom order form for your project which you have to sign and fax back to them. Also, shipping from Bulgaria is either expensive or slow outside of Europe. If time is important, it can often be the same price to get the boards made in your own country just because the fast shipping is cheaper even though manufacturing costs are higher locally.

Price: Much better than Advanced Circuits, if you're willing to wait for your boards. As I said, their in an ex-Eastern Bloc country, so labor is cheap. They give a small discount on reorders.

Quality: Not as good as Advanced Circuits or ExpressPCB. Whatever they use to cut boards must be some kind of crushing or slicing tool, because it leaves rough edges. This is also probably why they can only do rectangular boards. Better board houses use high-speed automatic router-like tools to cut boards out of a panel; the edges end up cleaner, and they can do odd-shaped boards as a result. The board quality also doesn't appear as good to my eye, but it is probably serviceable. It's a good bargain for the money if slow shipping is okay with you. If you have to spend more on shipping to get it quickly, getting the boards made locally will probably get you a better product for the same money.

One quality glitch I had with Olimex is that the board outline on the boards I had them make was on the top copper layer, which is how Eagle does it. They didn't set their board size by it and erase the line, they actually printed it on the board, so now the board edges are conductive in places. This could be a problem if you didn't plan for it. Advanced Circuits hasn't given me boards like that even though they also came out of Eagle.

[size=small]CustomPCB[/size]

I saw pictures of aos's boards, and they were total crap. I'm not even talking about the invisible failures that caused him so much difficulties. The solder plating wasn't leveled, it was all very rough looking...yick. I'm not inclined to be as charitable with them. You would just have to look at the results coming out of manufacturing to know you were producing junk. They shouldn't have taken any orders at all using that process. Maybe they'd be okay if you were making boards for a tube amp with huge traces and wide spaces, but for tight work, forget about it. It's better than etching boards by hand, but only just.
 
Jul 30, 2003 at 5:26 AM Post #8 of 18
I'll second Tangent's analysis of expressPCB vs PCB123, just recently tried to learn it, and it's not very good. Their forums are rife with people losing their entire projects. ExpressPCB is the most solid, easiest to learn PCB software I've tried. The 30day trial of Protel DXP was slightly harder, but much more full-featured.
 
Jul 30, 2003 at 5:31 AM Post #9 of 18
I haven't tried Custom PCB, so I can't comment on their boards. I just suggested them because their service is very cheap (manufacturing and shipping).

aos,

Did you get a refund or new boards from Custom PCB? Their rework/refund policy seems pretty reasonable.
 
Jul 30, 2003 at 5:35 AM Post #10 of 18
Ugh, I was supposed to learn Eagle for a class this semester. It was the last of eight projects we had to do, which (of course) I did mostly during the last week of school...needless to say I wasn't wonderfully successful trying to get Eagle to work. My teacher scoffed and said "I really need to throw that Eagle program out of the curriculum." ^_^

Gotta try ExpressPCB now. Great information here.
 
Jul 30, 2003 at 1:38 PM Post #11 of 18
At work we use an outside contractor to handle pcb layout, which means I don’t have after hours access to pro layout software

A couple of possibilities that came up while searching for free/cheap tools:

VuTrax – I’ve spent 6-8 hrs playing and I’m still completely lost, anyone know if it is worth pursuing? - looks very powerful but I just don't "get" their paradigm. I was tempted by the 256 pin/multilayer capabilities in the demo version – most demos are limited to 2 layers, I can no longer imagine a “quality” layout in 2-layer, 4 layers with flexible internal plane partitioning is my standard for low noise precision analog&mixed signal instrumentation PCB design, why should I settle for less in a high end audio design
http://www.vutrax.co.uk/vdesc.htm

Target 3001: PCB-Pool offers a “non-demo, non-limited” free download locked to their ordering format, PCB-Pool prices look good for 2-layer, (European based, delivery delays?) – I haven’t even opened the demo download, anyone here know about Target or PCB-Pool?
http://ibfriedrich.com/english/index.htm
http://www.pcb-pool.com/html_us/us_service_1.htm
 
Jul 30, 2003 at 9:03 PM Post #12 of 18
Eagle is a powerful piece of software but it has a fair share of quirks. Not bugs, just user interface issues. I wouldn't say that the library part creation is bad, in fact it is very powerful. I have a quite large library I created for my needs, and now it's pretty easy and fast to design stuff as long as I keep using the same parts. It is not an easy process at first for non-standard parts (e.g. optical receivers) but if you're just creating another DAC chip which is SOIC-28, you can get it all done in 15 minutes or less.

I can also attest to sales people calls (yes, actual phone calls) from Advanced Circuits after you've tried out the online estimate. That's why they force you to register. I actually count that as a minus - if I ordered or came close enough, fine, but if I am just trying to find out what their price is (and you can't without registering), I don't see why do they think they should be calling. Once I actually told them, that my local factory (Omnigraph) does not base the price on number of SMD pads while it is a major factor in Advanced's price and that's why I didn't go through with it (and also because I favour to benefit local economy, naturally), they didn't call back anymore though they still send me emails aobut promotions and stuff (which I don't mind). I might actually order something from them, just because I have an issue with just about everybody else - either quality, speed or customer service.
 
Jul 30, 2003 at 9:15 PM Post #13 of 18
I'm hoping to get a large project (small run, just large boards) done sometime in the next few months, so I've been casing the boardhouses a bit. I really dislike how advanced circuits won't let you see the price, and I think I will just forget about them for a while.

Imagineering looks like it has some of the best prices of the bunch, for 3-5 boards on their promotional packages, and even just in a manual quote. Right now it's between them and expressPCB.

Anyone else have experience with them?
 
Jul 31, 2003 at 2:35 AM Post #14 of 18
I took advantage of Advanced Circuits free PCB offer and had 100 very small double sided PCBs made and delivered free of charge. They were finished about 2 weeks ahead of schedule and turned out exactly as expected thanks to their Free DFM system. The quality and consistency of the PCBs was very good.

They are not able to produce as fine a silkscreen or trace as some of the others out there, but it normally isn't going to be a problem. They are a bit more expensive for prototypes and in relatively small quantities it is quite expensive to alter soldermask color over standard green (they quoted $150 additional for black). However, the fact that they save your film from previous jobs will save you money, because you won't have to pay a setup fee should you decide to have more of a particular design run. Also, they seem to have quite a few promotions, so if you are patient, you won't have to pay their full price.

Overall, I am very satisfied with them and plan to go with them on my next big project.

Stu
 
Jul 31, 2003 at 6:52 AM Post #15 of 18
An advise for totally beginner layout designer, don't even expect ppl convert Files for you. I had asked for a convertion from ExpressPCB files to Genber format at ADVcircuit. They tell me to pay $1XX for the convertion fee. So start try to learn the professional CAD tool.
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