[coinmaster]

you are much more of a champion for tube amps.

It's not really tubes I like per se, it's tube curves. I got a few ideas I can try to get tube curves out of solid state stuff. It's on my list of stuff to do.

Do you think Schiit amps, especially their tube and hybrid amps (pretty much every amp they sell except for the Magni and Asgard) are overpriced just like the rest of them?

No Schiit does a good job at not being overpriced. They pretty much set the new barrier of entry.
I don't agree with their topological philosophy (Circlotrons and Lin amps. Meh) but at the price they sell them it's hard to beat.

 

[Philosobyte]

I don't agree with their topological philosophy (Circlotrons and Lin amps. Meh)

The only Lin amp Schiit ever did was the Magni up until the Magni 2. They currently have no Lin amps in their headphone amp lineup.

 

[coinmaster]

What are they using nowadays?

 

[Philosobyte]

What are they using nowadays?

I don't know. But Schiit posts pictures of the boards for every product they make on their official product website, e.g. for the Magni 3, the last picture here: http://www.schiit.com/products/magni-3

The following are posts by Jason in his book:

Sidenote 3: The only Lin amp we do is Magni—so, ironically, Magni is closest to a speaker amp in the Schiit family.

When he introduced the Magni 3:

Because, even though Magni 3 looks the same, it’s a fundamentally different product. All previous Magnis had been based on the well-known Lin amplifier topology. It’s literally the most-used discrete topology in the world.

 

[coinmaster]

I read the Schiit online journal/book thingy at one point. As far as I remember they only spoke of using circlotrons and Lin. They seemed to be fond of the circlotron and put it in a few of their products.
The ragnarok is a circlotron too i think. Personally I find the circlotron boring but they seem to be the only ones selling a solid state circlotron, which is both surprising because it's been around since like the 1950s and unsurprising because the lack of creativity in typical audio design is staggering (to me at least).

 

[bigshot]

"If it ain't broke, don't fix it!"

 

[coinmaster]

Unless it gives you ultimate sound, it is "broke". There's always improvements to be made.

 

[bigshot]

Not beyond the ability of your ears to hear those "improvements"! Once you hit the level of audible transparency, your job is done.

 

[coinmaster]

I never said anything about THD improvements.
My amps sound far more realistic than any commercial amp I have ever heard. It has nothing to do with THD.
It is the precise reason I decided to get into EE and uncover why.

By your explanation, just about any amp is audibly perfect and every topology is effectively the same.
Low output impedance and inaudible distortion is given by just about any amp you buy.

There are many other factors that affect the end result of what you hear. Not just distortion of the stage, even though in my opinion it's better to distort "right" then to remove distortion.
I can literally create an an amplifier with unmeasurable distortion and very low output impedance using differential error correction for a few dollars. If it was that simple this website would not exist.

 

[RRod]

There are many other factors that affect the end result of what you hear. Not just distortion of the stage, even though in my opinion it's better to distort "right" then to remove distortion.

What are those factors and can you provide an example of where these factors produce an audibly worse sound from a common 'good enough' amp compared to what you design?

 

[coinmaster]

Depends on the topology.I don't have the time nor the desire to teach EE on this thread sorry. Go to diyaudio.com or build some of your own amps if you want answers to that question.
To name a few, ground implementation can have a large effect on sound. Output impedance can also have an effect on sound (lower is not always better). Harmonic "behavior" is a big one. Harmonic structure is another big one. How the output stage delivers current into the load is pretty important. What kind of feedback is used if any(improper use of feedback can introduce audible distortion).
I can go on and on but a lot of it is topology specific.

 

[pinnahertz]

How about an example of where these factors produce an audibly worse sound from a common 'good enough' amp compared to what you design? Assuming "good enough" is determined by some fairly standard, though possibly more complete than usual measurements? Or are we into the "we can't measure it but we can hear it", "test equipment can't measure everything audible" zone here?

Or how about your definition of where harmonic behavior becomes "bad", or harmonic structure is more audible?

No need to each EE to do that, is there?

 

[trellus]

What are they using nowadays?

Schiit has been apparently innovating in their amps lately...

I have no idea what this means, but they're using some kind of "discrete, current-feedback gain stage" -- I'm not an engineer so I'm clueless, but from their FAQ on the Magni 3:

"It’s not like you can chop Jotunheim’s Pivot Point topology in half. But, like Jotunheim, Magni 3 uses a discrete, current-feedback gain stage that provides ultra-high performance. Unlike Jotunheim, Magni’s gain stage is fully complementary, all-BJT, and single-ended. The main point is it’s a super-high-end, exotic-topology, no-excuses, do-all headphone amp—that just happens to cost $99."

http://www.schiit.com/products/magni-3

And similarly, Jotunheim:

"Unique Pivot Point Gain Stage
Jotunheim's gain stage is a unique, inherently balanced, fully discrete current feedback topology that provides both balanced and single-ended output without the need for splitters or summers. It provides extremely wide bandwidth and excellent measured performance—together with the advantages of constant, low feedback across the entire audio band. What does all this techno-talk mean? In English, excellent performance from all inputs and outputs."

http://www.schiit.com/products/jotunheim

 

[raybone0566]

Anyone curious about this should as it’s been said trust your own ears. That’s why getting to meets and hearing those amps and then decide. Dac’s are just as important but that’s not the topic here. Tube amps are my choice as they just offer a level of transparency & cohesiveness that I’ve yet to hear in a ss amplifier. On final note, I wouldn’t believe anything you read on Stereophile

 

[coinmaster]

How about an example of where these factors produce an audibly worse sound from a common 'good enough' amp compared to what you design? Assuming "good enough" is determined by some fairly standard, though possibly more complete than usual measurements?
Or how about your definition of where harmonic behavior becomes "bad", or harmonic structure is more audible?

First thing you need to understand is that a distortion analyzer is not a voice coil load. It is apples and oranges using a distortion analyzer to tell you how a lot of those factors I stated will affect the sound. That's beside the fact that I can make a potato have good THD under the right conditions.
Secondly, I don't have the magic ability to produce examples for you, there is data scattered around the internet but I'm not going to do a google search for you though.
Don't confuse my responses for me trying to prove something to people on the internet. You can do your own tests and reading if you want to find the truth.

Or are we into the "we can't measure it but we can hear it", "test equipment can't measure everything audible" zone here?

Many of the "can't measure but can hear" arguments are more along the lines of "what isn't measured or understood by the reader/writer". But no, what I'm saying is based in science.

Or how about your definition of where harmonic behavior becomes "bad", or harmonic structure is more audible?

Oh boy, this is a deep hole you are digging here. To put it simply harmonic behavior and harmonic structure will sound different because of how our brains are designed to filter sound and because how power transfers through air.
If you want more info you can do your own reading and testing on the matter.

No need to each EE to do that, is there?

Yes actually.