[bavinck]

email sent

 

[darinf]

  email sent

Thanks. I just sent you and e-mail with the coupon code.

 

[edwardsean]

For anyone interested, professional level upmixing from stereo tracks to 5.1/7.1 for OOYH can be done.
 
I've been pursuing this for years to take full advantage of OOYH's surround sound capability. I've been so impressed with this while watching movies. Sometimes, at the end, when the credits roll up, there is a beautiful multichannel mix of a track I own in stereo. Those big cinematic orchestral pieces sound grand in 5.1/7.1 but less so in 2.0 and the bass is diminished. 
 
So, I've experimented with upmixing but the only choice was JRiver's upmixing feature, which is very poor quality: artificial, phasey, and cloudy. The problem was always that no music host, as far as I'm aware, can handle multichannel plugins. (Pure Music has multichannel support, but the plugins won't load.) It took a lot of trial and error, but there is a way. 
 
There are a handful of professional grade upmixing plugins. Penteo, Auro, Iosono have produced upmixing algorithms that convincingly emulate real surround mixes from stereo sources. They are used by engineers for major production releases by e.g., Sony, Disney, Paramount, etc. However, it wasn't until late last year that Nugen introduced their upmixing plug called Halo. The thing about Halo is that it has built in digital mixer and downmix processing.
 
So what I did was run multiple instances of Halo processing two channels each in Audiohijack. So for 5.1: I ran three instances of Halo upmixing to 5.1 but muting all but 2 channels which I downmixed to stereo: 1) L/R, 2) LS/RS, 3) C/LFE.  I then fed each pair into OOYH routed to the appropriate channel. Luckily, though Audiohijack restricts you to stereo output, you can open multiples of the same output device and assign the L/R channels to different multi-channels.
 
The whole software chain looks like this:
 
Audirvana/Tidal > Audiohijack [Sonarworks > EQ > Nugen Halo X3 > OOYH X3] > OOYH.
 
Here is a screen grab of the Audiohijack matrix:
 

 
 
I have to say, this is ridiculously convoluted, system intensive, and all the professional upmixing plugs are very pricey. Halo is $499 and the trial requires iLok authorization. So this is not a simple matter. If anyone knows an easier route, please let me know!
 
But, I also have to say, the results are... spectacular, truly spectacular. 

 

[bavinck]

Darin,
Any idea how to apply sonarworks and ooyh from a multichannel video file in jriver? Sounds like only 2 channel audio is coming out of sonarworks/jriver into ooyh. Any idea on a fix?

 

[darinf]

Darin,
Any idea how to apply sonarworks and ooyh from a multichannel video file in jriver? Sounds like only 2 channel audio is coming out of sonarworks/jriver into ooyh. Any idea on a fix?

Hi bavinck,
Sonarworks is a two channel plug in. AFAIK, it doesn't support more than two channels.

Also, since it's a plug in, it can't be put after Out Of Your Head. In theory you might be able to setup some kind of plug in host audio chain to put the sonarworks plug in after Out Of Your Head like edwardsean above. But it's not a very easy option.

-Darin

 

[edwardsean]

  Darin,
Any idea how to apply sonarworks and ooyh from a multichannel video file in jriver? Sounds like only 2 channel audio is coming out of sonarworks/jriver into ooyh. Any idea on a fix?

Hey Bavinck. Yes, it's as Darin described. Since it's a multichannel file and sonarworks is stereo only, you have to capture the system audio after OOYH downmixes to stereo. Fortunately, since you're working with a multichannel source file it's not as complicated as upmixing. You do have to get an audio capture program that can take plugins. Audiohijack is your best option, but you have to be careful to configure the system to avoid routing the signal to OOYH twice.
 
I've done this with Kodi sending multichannel audio to OOYH and then to audio hijack/sonarworks and then to a transport/DAC/amp. I should say though sonarworks doesn't like being but after OOYH. I didn't like the result. I suppose you could use Audiohijack to put sonarworks before OOYH by creating a multichannel matrix running multiple instances of sonarworks. That's similar to what i did above, but It's complicated and processor intensive. 
 
Darin worked so hard to produce the low latency version and by chaining in sonarworks you reintroduce latency and have to fiddle with the AV sync. In my opinion sonarworks is not worth it for video files, unless sonarworks comes out with a multichannel version you can easily put before OOYH. To my ears at least, video files sound just fine going directly into OOYH. 

 

[bavinck]

Ooyh with hd700 big soundstage really sounds like actual speakers in a room. My hd650 is good with it, but the 700 is completely immersive.

 

[musicreo]

   
Quote:

   
So, I've experimented with upmixing but the only choice was JRiver's upmixing feature, which is very poor quality: artificial, phasey, and cloudy. The problem was always that no music host, as far as I'm aware, can handle multichannel plugins.
 

With foobar2000 you  can use multichannel VST plugins.

 

[edwardsean]

  With foobar2000 you  can use multichannel VST plugins.

Right. Sorry, I should've clarified, I was referring to OSX only. Once you're in the Apple universe you get Mac-myopia. Thanks for reminding me about Foobar. I wish they would make a Mac port!

 

[phoenixdogfan]

As both an Sonarworks and an OOYH user, I can use both only with two channel applications by running Sonarworks as a JRiver Plugin and sending the output to OOYH.
 
As a result,  when I'm doing multi channel movies,  I find I strongly prefer to use my LCD X's to my Senn HD 800's.  I find that the soundstaging with the X's in multichannel Dolby HD is just fine, and its bass makes it more realistic for movies.  I could probably enjoy the Senns if I had multichannel eq since eq does wonders for the bass in 2 channel, but without that I find the bass  lacking for home theatre, also  the unequalized  highs prove wearing even with my SD mod.

 

[edwardsean]

  As both an Sonarworks and an OOYH user, I can use both only with two channel applications by running Sonarworks as a JRiver Plugin and sending the output to OOYH.
 
As a result,  when I'm doing multi channel movies,  I find I strongly prefer to use my LCD X's to my Senn HD 800's.  I find that the soundstaging with the X's in multichannel Dolby HD is just fine, and its bass makes it more realistic for movies.  I could probably enjoy the Senns if I had multichannel eq since eq does wonders for the bass in 2 channel, but without that I find the bass  lacking for home theatre, also  the unequalized  highs prove wearing even with my SD mod.

 
I don't know if the Cello preset works for you. For me it works the best with an expansive soundstage and the bass is huge and deep in 5.1/7.1 through the LFE channel. 

 

[edwardsean]

Darin, i wonder if I could get your thoughts on something. 
 
The drawback of OOYH is that there is no simple way to customize the presets for each individual user. I'm wondering if repositioning the headphone drivers would help augment the difference between the measured file and the user. 
 
Lately, I've been experimenting with this. Normally, of course, the earcups simply lay flat against my head around my ears. However, I added some foam shapes to the top of the earcups which allows me to articulate the angle and position of the drivers relative to my ear. As I've done this, I've found a placement that dramatically increases the accuracy and realism of the convolution processing. It's actually pretty amazing to me. 
 
I'm wondering if the improvements are because, in so doing, I'm more closely approximating the measured HRTF and maybe even altering the pinnae response. It's given me an idea of just how much better a custom measurement would be. At the same time, the results sound so "correct" at this point, I'm not sure how much more accurate it can get. Of at truth, I'm not sure exactly what's going on, but this repositioning, along with fine tuning the upmixing stereo to surround, has given me another jump in sound. 

 

[darinf]

  Darin, i wonder if I could get your thoughts on something. 
 
The drawback of OOYH is that there is no simple way to customize the presets for each individual user. I'm wondering if repositioning the headphone drivers would help augment the difference between the measured file and the user. 
 
Lately, I've been experimenting with this. Normally, of course, the earcups simply lay flat against my head around my ears. However, I added some foam shapes to the top of the earcups which allows me to articulate the angle and position of the drivers relative to my ear. As I've done this, I've found a placement that dramatically increases the accuracy and realism of the convolution processing. It's actually pretty amazing to me. 
 
I'm wondering if the improvements are because, in so doing, I'm more closely approximating the measured HRTF and maybe even altering the pinnae response. It's given me an idea of just how much better a custom measurement would be. At the same time, the results sound so "correct" at this point, I'm not sure how much more accurate it can get. Of at truth, I'm not sure exactly what's going on, but this repositioning, along with fine tuning the upmixing stereo to surround, has given me another jump in sound. 

Hi @edwardsean ,
Wow, I should hire you for our R&D team! I am glad you found a solution which increases the accuracy for you with Out Of Your Head.
 
The thing is, that while one adjustment may work well for you, there's no guarantees it will work for anyone else. The angle/shape of the pinnae affects the sound, of course. So in your case, it is possible that your adjustments to the angle of the driver could result in a more accurate sound. Maybe people could use a pair of AKG K1000's so they can easily adjust the angle of the drivers. On my pair of AKG 100's, the angle of the drivers greatly affects the sound in general with or without Out Of Your Head. 
 
The other possibility is that for some people IEM's may work better since they at least eliminate the interaction of the sound from headphone drivers with the pinnae. In theory that should eliminate one more variable in the equation. But you would think then that IEM's would always sound better with Out Of Your Head. I don't think that's the case though for everyone. 
 
Regardless, I still think a custom measurement would still yield an even better result. Unfortunately a custom measurement is not so easy to get done.
 
Thanks for posting your findings though. Definitely worth a try for some of you DIY people out there.

 

[edwardsean]

Thanks for the input and encouragement Darin! Yes, I still plan on getting a custom measurement when I can find someone who can do it well in my area. I know I shouldn't question whether the sound can be improved as it always seems to!
 
I have to say that it's taken quite a bit of experimenting and system matching to realize the potential of what I first heard from OOYH years ago. But, each step has been well rewarded. At this point, I've moved beyond satisfaction to the territory of the surprising. 

 

[phoenixdogfan]

Everyone hears differently.  For me the Focal Scala and the Magico Q7 are the ones I've settled on.  The Q7's are a little more pinpoint but have smaller images,  the Scalas are incredibly vivid, but the individual images are more spread out.  Both have excellent bass and tonality.  The Cellos never seemed to work for me.  Just goes to show that the individual HRTF is the ruling factor.  Bass is not a problem with eitherthe Scala or the Q7's, btw, it's deep, taut, and impactful without in any way overpowering or obscuring the midrange.