[edwardsean]

  This is very impressive software. I've had a few hours of listening time with the various presets. Long enough to agree that, yeah, it sounds just like a set of speakers. 
 
But not particularly good speakers. They're all very different and none approach neutral. The binaural positioning is far superior for movies, but if I could keep that mathematical model and subtract all the various speakers that created it, this product  would be much more compelling. Headphones have so much higher fidelity than any full-size speaker arrangement, I wonder the virtue of attempting to emulate something worse. 
 
Anyway, so far, I've found the free HRTF function in PotPlayer to present the most realistic sound, as opposed to the most realistic rendition of speakers playing the sound. If OOYH could do better, I'd consider it a bargain. 

So... over the summer I fell in love... with the Sony NW-ZX2. The ZX2 + AMD surround software + Uber Cable + Tralucent Ref.1 = love. So much so that I thought "maybe I don't need my other gear." After travels, I plugged the ZX2 into the Hugo with upgraded digital cabling and thought, "Whoa I forgot how great the Hugo is." Then I swapped out the DAP fired up Pure Music + OOYH + Synergistic Research USB + Audiophileo convertor + Hugo + Uber Cable + Tralucent Ref.1 (DHC cable + HD800) and thought, "Nope." OOYH is a world away from ZX2 + AMD surround--which I still love, but c'mon--speakers. 
 
Now I don't know how close OOYH gets to "good speakers." I don't own a pair of Magicos, which is sad for me. But two things come to mind. First, I'm trusting that you're making your assessment based on a high quality headphone setup, because it just wouldn't be a fair analysis of the software to try and emulate "good speakers" out of bad headphones. I do think OOYH can turn an HD800 into good speakers, but it can't turn iPod earbuds into HD800s. This is psychoacoustics not psycho acoustics. 
 
Secondly, to my mind anyway, "the virtue of attempting to emulate something worse," i.e., speakers, is precisely because "headphones have so much higher fidelity." It is leveraging that very sonic fidelity/ cost + ergonomics ratio to compress high quality speaker sound into a much smaller, private form factor at a fraction of the cost, i.e., into headphones. In other words, I love my HD800s but if I didn't have family, I would want a pair of Magicos.
 
The breakthrough implementation of this approach is via convolution (a la Smyth and OOYH), and so you can't subtract the mathematical model from the various speakers that have been sampled, because the mathematical models are those speakers. What makes it so convincing is that OOYH is not an algorithm of a surround effect generated by speaker arrays, but the actual impulse/response of real speakers in real rooms. How accurately it stacks up against those actual systems seems like it would be so dependent upon the headphone chain and the individual's ORTF.
 
But, I don't know, it sure sounds like "good speakers" to me. 

 

[alexdi]

Besides the one I mentioned, I haven't found any freely-available HRTF models worth listening to. Surprising, this, given how compelling a good one can be. I'm listening on sets of 400i and HD600.  
 
If OOYH represents how the sampled speakers actually sound, it's not an argument in their favor. I can hear cabinet resonance and unpleasant room acoustics with many of them. That's why it sounds real to me; I've heard those problems before. I just don't see the benefit of seeking them out. As earlier, if it's a choice between "real" and "real speakers," I'd take the former. 

 

[darinf]

  Besides the one I mentioned, I haven't found any freely-available HRTF models worth listening to. Surprising, this, given how compelling a good one can be. I'm listening on sets of 400i and HD600.  
 
If OOYH represents how the sampled speakers actually sound, it's not an argument in their favor. I can hear cabinet resonance and unpleasant room acoustics with many of them. That's why it sounds real to me; I've heard those problems before. I just don't see the benefit of seeking them out. As earlier, if it's a choice between "real" and "real speakers," I'd take the former. 

Hi @alexdi ,
 
Thanks for posting. and Thanks for your response too @edwardsean ,
 
I think you have a valid point. I am also impressed that you can hear so much detail in the reproduction of the sound of the speakers in Out Of Your Head. Yes, the speakers and rooms definitely have flaws. So far I have not yet found the "perfect" speaker system if there is such a thing. The point of Out Of Your Head is to reproduce the sound of speakers and rooms. I am glad it sounds real to you.
 
But "reality" is a double edged sword. As I have stated before, the speakers and rooms I measure are difficult to find, so I get what I get. Some speakers are better, some rooms are better, and some mega buck rooms do not sound as good as one would hope after spending that kind of money. I can't really go into someone's listening room and tune their room, apply acoustic treatments, etc. I am lucky enough to be able to do our measurements at all.
 
Plus there isn't such thing as a perfect room anyway. Every speaker and room has compromises. But that's reality. That's the speaker listening experience. 
 
Some of the recording studio presets like AIX or MiCasa or Genelec are calibrated, highly acoustically treated rooms. They tend to have the least room interactions and therefore can be closer to that ideal "perfect" room. But personally I like the music listening rooms better for listening to music. For movies, the recording studios can be quite good.
 
I have had others ask me if there's a way to male a "perfect" simulation with perfect speakers and no room interaction at all. The short answer is no, I can't. Again I will use the analogy of CGI vs. shooting film/video. With CGI, you can make everything as perfect as you want, but it's not reality. It may come close to looking 100% real, but filming an actual real scene is going to be more real. It will not be perfect, but it will look real because it's a recording of a real scene, not a computer generated version. It's like making a movie with CGI actors vs. live action actors. You can make the CGI actors look however you want, but with real actors, you can't change their face for example to look like someone else or to be more "perfect". Anyway, you get the idea.
 
So with that said, Out Of Your Head is not for everyone. Many people like headphones better than speakers. Some people don't want the sound of real speakers. That's fine. But if you want to experience sitting in a real room with real speakers, then give Out Of Your Head a try. 
 

As earlier, if it's a choice between "real" and "real speakers," I'd take the former.

I am not sure what "real" means as opposed to "real speakers". Would I rather have the sound of live music vs. listening to speakers, sure! But I am not sure how that's possible, especially with headphones, maybe binaural recordings? But to me listening to "real speakers" sounds closer to a live performance with the sound out in front of me rather than headphone listening with all the sound inside my head.
 
Thanks for listening,
-Darin

 

[alexdi]

Darin,

Thank you for that comprehensive response.

There's an engineering site online that's made available for free use about 50 HRTF models derived from a variety of heads. A number of companies use a handful of them to make high-priced VST plugins for surround emulation in music production.

What does not exist is a simple program like OOYH to apply these models to a generic audio feed and let the user choose between them until they find one that best approximates their head.

I don't know the technical challenge of implementing this, but I, and I believe quite a lot of other people, would certainly pay for it. No speakers required.

 

[phoenixdogfan]

You make an excellent point.  I am an old hi end speaker guy, and to me OOYH sounds just like an excellent hi-end system--at least on some of the presets.  Does that mean those presets have the same colorations caused by the limitations of their drivers, crossovers, cabinets and room set-ups?  Sure, but even so it certainly beats ​(for me) the flat, plastered to your eardrum sound of even the best headphones.
 
There are also many hi end systems now using DSP to overcome things like crossover induced phase shifts and standing waves in the room speaker interaction.  Darin even has a few systems (the ribbons) that utilize this technology.
 
But I think you have hit upon something regarding being able to use a customized or semi customized HRTF with the room speaker presets. If it would be possible at some point to record the presets with a dummy head whose HRTF was well understood mathematically, and then create the capability in the program of subtracting out the dummy head's HRTF and substituting one of a number of HRTFs which the end user picks from a library, then, especially with a quality headphone properly equalized, it will be possible to create a universally usable high end system for comparatively little money.
 
I know this is a daunting technical challenge for the companies creating these OOYH type programs, but I am certain it is doable, and in all probability will be done in the next five years.

 

[musicreo]

Darin,

Thank you for that comprehensive response.

There's an engineering site online that's made available for free use about 50 HRTF models derived from a variety of heads. A number of companies use a handful of them to make high-priced VST plugins for surround emulation in music production.

What does not exist is a simple program like OOYH to apply these models to a generic audio feed and let the user choose between them until they find one that best approximates their head.

I don't know the technical challenge of implementing this, but I, and I believe quite a lot of other people, would certainly pay for it. No speakers required.

I know that site. I have tested  most of the HRTfs which were recorded in a anechoic room with  a free convolution  DSP (it took me some time to set up everything)  and for me all sound bad.  The sound coloration is extreme and you loose  low frequencies. Also the left right balance is sometimes wrong. I think Darin have made better measurements for his BRIRs.
So far  the best free binaural room impulses I have found are these: http://spatialaudio.net/183/

 

[ns6490]

 
If OOYH represents how the sampled speakers actually sound, it's not an argument in their favor. I can hear cabinet resonance and unpleasant room acoustics with many of them. That's why it sounds real to me; I've heard those problems before. I just don't see the benefit of seeking them out. As earlier, if it's a choice between "real" and "real speakers," I'd take the former. 

 
TB Isone eliminates the problems you describe. It can much more closely match your HRTF than the stock presets of OOYH, and it can reduce or eliminate reverb as much as you wish. It does take some time and patience to customize it for your particular HRTF, but it's a thing of beauty when you arrive at the right settings.

 

[alexdi]

FYI for anyone into this-- the combination I found to replace PotPlayer is J.River player with Sonarworks and Wave Arts Panorama VST plugins. The latter has a dozen HRTF profiles. Find the right one and the result is pretty incredible. The best demos from OOYH can do better, but if your HRTF doesn't match the OOYH presets, those two are a great alternative. I really wanted TB Isone to work, but honestly, it's amateur-hour next to Panorama. 

 

[edwardsean]

Isone is a nice bit of code. If you listen to headphones because you can't stand the resonance anomalies of speakers then it might be just the thing for you. Isone, when properly set, is your headphone sound re-presented in surround like dimensionality. It does that without room interference, but by the same token, it falls short of the kind of grand scale and sense of space, air, and immersion that speakers provide. I know I'm a broken record (or FLAC file?) on this, but OOYH is the only thing that recreates that (at least on the software side of a Symth Realiser).
 
Every form of reproduction has tradeoffs and, to be sure, with OOYH you are bringing in both the positives and negatives of speakers and rooms. However, if I can give some small benefit of experience from being a somewhat early adopter, I would caution against attributing personal system deficiencies to OOYH. Two quick cases If I may:
 
1) OOYH is definitely "thinner" and bright sounding than straight sound or e.g., Isone. But, you have treat OOYH like any other component of system synergy. Paired with a weak and thin amp you get a hollow and wispy sound. Paired with a tube-like amp with some analog weight and, at least to my ears, just wow....
 
2) OOYH's real room/speaker emulations are going to come with their real acoustic issues. However, I've spent untold hours tweaking with a raft of professional grade EQs only to find that the problem I was hearing was not OOYH but in my own system. Case in point, Alexdi mentioned the wonderful Sonarworks which corrects headphone EQ curves. I applied it to my HD800 and freq. spectrum issues, I thought were OOYH or differences in HRTF, cleared up.
 
The takeaway is to think of OOYH not as a toy or mere effect, but a main part of the signal chain. Because it reshapes the sound so dramatically it has to be given that stake in shaping the overall system to function at its best. When it does, again, just wow....

 

[edwardsean]

Just some more thoughts on OOYH vs. Isone (and other algorithmic software), in case there is interest.
 
Isone is one of best executions of the algorithmic approach to spatial virtualization. Some will prefer this to OOYH because it’s only attempting virtualization of your personal system. You still recognize your headphone and amp as you tweak HRTF, reflection, localization cues. It's a pretty dramatic effect, but positively or negatively, there is not as large a psychoacoustic delta relative to OOYH. What I mean is this.
 
With OOYH, you’re "giving up" your system to a greater degree. Unlike Isone, OOYH isn't just trying to get your system out of your head and into your room (despite the name). It's attempting to get a whole another system+room into your room. Your system becomes a conduit to “channel” in e.g., the spirit of Acoustic Zen speakers, in a reference room, through the medium of your headphone and amp, into your room. (The movie "Inception"?) The result becomes a hybrid sound that works best when you match 1) Darin's convolution captures to 2) your HRTF and 3) your personal system. I’m assuming most people aren’t going to purchase custom OOYH profiles and there’s not a whole lot you can do to alter your HRTF. Cosmetic surgery is probably the least preferable way to increase audio quality. (Also, we'd all end up looking like Darin. I'm sure he's a good looking guy but I would think this is not the way.)
 
So, that leaves the system. Personally, I test every purchase of new gear with OOYH engaged and then defeat it to see how it sounds pure. For obvious reasons, I used to do the reverse, but a while ago OOYH became as much a part of the core I wanted to build around as my HD800s. I don't mean to dissuade use of OOYH without such a commitment, as I quite enjoyed it from the start, but I'm talking about scalability. With every upgrade of my system, I never feel as if I'm leaving OOYH behind, but like I'm catching up to it. Recently, I assembled another endgame system ("another endgame" is linguistically an oxymoron, but I'm sure headfiers can both appreciate it and commiserate with the phrase). In this system, I would put up OOYH against any Smyth Realiser setup, and find that it's actually making real gains against actual 6-7 figure listening rooms. 
 
I apologize for the long posts, but hope that it might help someone.

 

[ns6490]

  FYI for anyone into this-- the combination I found to replace PotPlayer is J.River player with Sonarworks and Wave Arts Panorama VST plugins. The latter has a dozen HRTF profiles. Find the right one and the result is pretty incredible. The best demos from OOYH can do better, but if your HRTF doesn't match the OOYH presets, those two are a great alternative. I really wanted TB Isone to work, but honestly, it's amateur-hour next to Panorama. 

 
Interested to hear your thoughts on the respective virtues of Panorama and Sonarworks versus those of Isone. I haven't checked them out, so I don't know in which ways Isone may be amateurish in comparison. However, I do know that Isone's creator has impeccable academic and professional credentials in the field in question.

 

[alexdi]

   
Interested to hear your thoughts on the respective virtues of Panorama and Sonarworks versus those of Isone. I haven't checked them out, so I don't know in which ways Isone may be amateurish in comparison. However, I do know that Isone's creator has impeccable academic and professional credentials in the field in question.

 
I can't speak to Isone, but the other two have free trials with no functionality limitations, so by all means have a go yourself. I made a post with more details here:
 
http://www.head-fi.org/t/782170/fun-with-vsts 

 

[Sarurururu]

Hello Darin,

I am one of your customers. Recently I have updated my computer from Window 7 to Window 10. Since then OOYH stop working. I've tried reinstall it however still out of luck. I wonder if you could give me some advice. Thank you. William

 

[olegausany]

Hello Darin,

I am one of your customers. Recently I have updated my computer from Window 7 to Window 10. Since then OOYH stop working. I've tried reinstall it however still out of luck. I wonder if you could give me some advice. Thank you. William

Old version isn't compatible with Windows 10. You should email Darin instead of posting here

 

[darinf]

Hello Darin,

I am one of your customers. Recently I have updated my computer from Window 7 to Window 10. Since then OOYH stop working. I've tried reinstall it however still out of luck. I wonder if you could give me some advice. Thank you. William

Please email us directly: info at fongaudio.com or use the contact form on our website.

We'll get you setup.

-Darin