opinons on power conditioners and regenerators ?
Feb 24, 2018 at 1:41 PM Post #151 of 208
Yes. It did nothing. And then we opened a few. One was nothing more than wires tied in knots. Scams are that easily promoted. They did not lie. Even wire knots are power conditioners when claims are subjective. Bbest sold to some who just know it must be better - because their ears said so. Emotional justify a believe and may even know they are a genius.

First indication of one who is only fanciful: subjective claims and no specification numbers.

Somehow AC currents on speaker wire are DC currents that make wires directional. And keep ignoring relevant question about the placebo effect.


So that was your only experience? What brand was it? That does not sound like the good AC conditioners I have my experience with. Not at all.

May I ask? Was it the least expensive one you could find?
 
Feb 24, 2018 at 2:29 PM Post #152 of 208
modo stuff:
I'm going to clean up the topic a little if you don't mind.
our friend 5genez won't be posting in this topic anymore. some immune reaction to the definition of a fact.



Can we perhaps begin collecting data on how many people here have actually done a blind a/b test with a power conditioner? Is it not at least worthwhile to try something yourself when so many witnesses have given accounts of hearing a clearly discernible difference when using a power conditioner? Especially when many of those witnesses say they used to be in the same camp as the naysayers on this thread (myself included). When I want to ascertain the truth I first look at the numbers but it if I also see a host of testimonials that go against the numbers it’s worth my time to conduct my own experiment. Let me return to my initial question, how many people have done a truly blind a/b test with a power conditioner?
that would be nice. but the impact will obviously depend on how bad the original power source is, and on how much care was put to deal with that possibility on the audio gears.
for having moved around a good deal, I certainly have stayed at places that could have used a power conditioner of sort.

one relevant factor for the 3 people who plan to do a blind test on this subject at some point. as the final voltage can change with an added power conditioner, so can the loudness of the output signal. it's obviously something that would need to be checked and matched when necessary before starting a listening test.
 
Feb 24, 2018 at 6:38 PM Post #153 of 208
To perform a valid test you need to build a special fixture that allows the AC conditioner to be switched in out very quickly -- preferably well under a second. Unplugging some equipment, replugging it into another will violate this and will only reveal differences that are large. You need a an AC "make before break" type of switch to keep the device from shutting down in between.

I know the founder of Shunyata and he had promised me to build such a gadget and invite me for a few round of blind tests. Alas, that has not come to fruition.
 
Feb 25, 2018 at 9:40 AM Post #154 of 208
as the final voltage can change with an added power conditioner, so can the loudness of the output signal. it's obviously something that would need to be checked and matched when necessary before starting a listening test.
If the voltage after insertion a power conditioner changes, say +/- 5% because it needs headroom to perform regulation, the only thing relating to loudness that would change would possibly be power amp headroom (clipping point), and that would be something like 1dB or less. Overall system gain and loudness should not, and cannot change, because if it did that would imply system gain is line voltage dependent. And that would be a very bad design indeed. The process of matching an unconditioned line to the output voltage of a voltage regulated power conditioner would be expensive and could change the source impedance of the line, changing test conditions. If the test is an ABX/DBT of the insertion of a power conditioner then nothing on the input side should be changed.

To perform a valid test you need to build a special fixture that allows the AC conditioner to be switched in out very quickly -- preferably well under a second. Unplugging some equipment, replugging it into another will violate this and will only reveal differences that are large. You need a an AC "make before break" type of switch to keep the device from shutting down in between.

I know the founder of Shunyata and he had promised me to build such a gadget and invite me for a few round of blind tests. Alas, that has not come to fruition.
"Make before break" is not necessary, and may not even be desirable. The short "break" in a "break-before-make" switch is only a few milliseconds long, and would be covered by the power supply filter in every audio device. In fact, MBB switching of power line AC devices may not be desirable in the case of a regulated power conditioner because it would apply a momentary input to output short.

For correct ABX switching of power conditioners a 3-relay system is required. Three, because the X choice must also include a relay and timing system that generates an identical interruption and an identical acoustic "click" or there would be a "tell" for the X choice. Shunyata probably hasn't responded because a simple switch wouldn't work, and a power line level ABX comparator switcher is not a simple project. Or possibly he figured out none of their products could go through an ABX with anything better than 50% results.
 
Feb 25, 2018 at 11:11 AM Post #155 of 208
If the voltage after insertion a power conditioner changes, say +/- 5% because it needs headroom to perform regulation, the only thing relating to loudness that would change would possibly be power amp headroom (clipping point), and that would be something like 1dB or less. Overall system gain and loudness should not, and cannot change, because if it did that would imply system gain is line voltage dependent. And that would be a very bad design indeed. The process of matching an unconditioned line to the output voltage of a voltage regulated power conditioner would be expensive and could change the source impedance of the line, changing test conditions. If the test is an ABX/DBT of the insertion of a power conditioner then nothing on the input side should be changed.


"Make before break" is not necessary, and may not even be desirable. The short "break" in a "break-before-make" switch is only a few milliseconds long, and would be covered by the power supply filter in every audio device. In fact, MBB switching of power line AC devices may not be desirable in the case of a regulated power conditioner because it would apply a momentary input to output short.

For correct ABX switching of power conditioners a 3-relay system is required. Three, because the X choice must also include a relay and timing system that generates an identical interruption and an identical acoustic "click" or there would be a "tell" for the X choice. Shunyata probably hasn't responded because a simple switch wouldn't work, and a power line level ABX comparator switcher is not a simple project. Or possibly he figured out none of their products could go through an ABX with anything better than 50% results.
I mentioned it because I remember a review of some extra expensive power... massager , therapist, body guard, conditioner and what not, in which the guy measured some increase at the output of his amp, I can't remember how much and the review was otherwise mostly flowery subjective bull crap. but I thought I'd mention it anyway. it doesn't cost much to check just in case.
 
Feb 25, 2018 at 11:52 AM Post #157 of 208
"Make before break" is not necessary, and may not even be desirable. The short "break" in a "break-before-make" switch is only a few milliseconds long, and would be covered by the power supply filter in every audio device.
Every audio device? How do you know the RC time constant of every audio device filter relative to activation time of any relay picked for this use?

Go ahead and give us data on how many audio products you have tested this way as to draw such generalization.
 
Feb 25, 2018 at 11:56 AM Post #158 of 208
In fact, MBB switching of power line AC devices may not be desirable in the case of a regulated power conditioner because it would apply a momentary input to output short.
"Regulated" power conditioner? Where have you seen such an animal? Surely you are not confused by multi-tap output transformer used in such devices and think they provide regulation, have you?
 
Feb 25, 2018 at 12:40 PM Post #159 of 208
Every audio device? How do you know the RC time constant of every audio device filter relative to activation time of any relay picked for this use?

Go ahead and give us data on how many audio products you have tested this way as to draw such generalization.
Well let's see now. Line frequencies are 50-60Hz. If it's an analog supply, the basic filter must get rid of 100-120Hz ripple. If it's a switching supply, the system is different, but neither the switching frequency nor any line-frequency or related harmonics can be allowed through. Both must include enough energy storage to satisfy transient demands of audio (if any). So, then, in either case a millisecond or so of switching time is a non issue.
 
Feb 25, 2018 at 12:47 PM Post #160 of 208
"Regulated" power conditioner? Where have you seen such an animal? Surely you are not confused by multi-tap output transformer used in such devices and think they provide regulation, have you?
That was exactly my thought too, but there are actually lots of products out there. The multi-tapped transformer versions are quite common, and regardless of what you and I consider as real voltage regulation, they are included in the category and are bought as such. Their actual response time and quality of regulation are not under discussion anyway. Neither is their efficacy or actual desirability. They are in many so-called power conditioners, ignoring the fact that well designed device power supplies already must provide some form of voltage regulation.
 
Feb 25, 2018 at 1:48 PM Post #161 of 208
Thankfully I live in Los Angeles and here we don't have power spikes from lightning to contend with. Every year or two, we might have a rotating power brownout during a heat spell, but I can just not play the stereo when that happens. The rest of the time I get adequate power to do the job. The transformer in my amp is good enough to handle any small problems on its own.
 
Feb 25, 2018 at 6:52 PM Post #162 of 208
I have said this a hundred times here. the only thing worth it is not some audio voodoo. or even legit audio product. run your equipment on a online ups. it must say online. it must be enough va to support your load! now you are running on battery never a/c. we can debate but we all agree in the end battery is probably cleaner than any ac. I stress it must be an online model. it is going to cost you but so does stuff like shunyata, Richard gray etc. if you have a very small system, less than 5 components and a total of less than 75 watts you can go with tripp and it might be $1,200. if you have a big McIntosh setup go with apc and looking at $75,000. if you only do headphones you are in luck because you are looking at $700 from tripp or refurbished for $500. do not buy used. the batteries are dead and that is the entire cost. especially with headphones if you have a good amp and dac I believe it is not voodoo you may very well hear a difference. this is industrial equipment for hospitals etc. it provides much cleaner than ac power if that is what you want. for whatever it is worth. I run one system little on a $2,500 smartups and my big system I will not say the cost. I feel I can hear the difference. I cannot measure the sound that is subjective. however I assure you I can measure way cleaner current. if nothing else caps, xformers etc will last longer. this is one thing I think is a good investment. the audiophile regenerators and such you can keep imo. surge protection is just insurance and mov's and such are likely to harm your sound. again, that is subjective. as far as science clean current never hurts. although tbh, today's equipment is designed to deal with ripple current etc.
 
Feb 25, 2018 at 9:20 PM Post #165 of 208
... I remember a review of some extra expensive power... in which the guy measured some increase at the output of his amp,
Always comes back to the only numbers that matter - DC voltages. For any changes (reduced noise, increased power, etc), those DC voltage parameters must change. Any test for a power conditioner, etc is determined by and defined by numbers that measure those DC voltages.

Anything a power condition might do is quantified in DC voltage numbers. Other reasons for noise involve completely unrelated electrical circuits that a power conditioner does nothing about. For example, a ground loop. That source of reduced quality is also best identified by numbers. And then solved by completely different and unrelated solutions.

To be clear, the phrase is "for example". Which means plenty other examples exist.

Anything that would magically cure AC power is always quantified by DC voltages. AC voltages can drop so low that an incandescent bulb dim to 50% intensity. Even AC power that 'dirty' is already made irrelevant by what must already be in every properly designed electronics. When AC voltages vary that much, DC voltages must not vary. That is where every answer (and proof of some 'cure') is defined - as always with numbers.

If 'dirtiest' power from a UPS causes changed to DC parameter, then the electronics has a serious design flaw.
 
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