[Wodgy]

[snip]

 

[Leporello]

I can't see the point in comparing vinyl with SACD (or red book cd, for that matter). This kind of comparison is only about the listener's preferences.

Instead, we should compare various formats with original source (in this case: the master tape). Anybody done this?

My preferences? I have never heard SACD. If it really sounds more like vinyl, it will simply be the greatest leap backwards in whole audio history.

It is music I like to hear, not the sound of my turntable (no matter how pleasing it may be).

Regards,

L.

 

[Nick Dangerous]

Eh? Is your turntable substandard, or is it that you can only tolerate live shows?

 

[tanfenton]

Quote:

Originally posted by Leporello It is music I like to hear, not the sound of my turntable (no matter how pleasing it may be).

Are you saying mechanical transduction is inherently more colored than the methods used by the Compact Disc? No more colored than a CD playback system, I'd argue. It's all about setup and component matching: One can achieve relative honesty with either format.

NGF

 

[kelly]

jopi
Listening to Bruebeck's Time Out SACD on dparrish's Sony XA777ES connected to Nick Dangerous' Oris 150 horn speaker system, I heard the most holographic sound I have yet heard in my life. This isn't to say I have no complaints or that there is no room for improvement but it is to argue that if your problem is with imaging, it is NOT with the recording or with the SACD format itself.

This conversation is purely accademic for me. I'm committed to digital sources for reasons of convenience and flexibility. I'd like to think SACD is capable of besting vinyl but I'm not yet sure this is the case.

The largest problem I have with these subjective opinions is that rarely are both the SACD player and the turntable system of equal quality. It seems that while expensive turntables, tone arms and phono stages are easily jusitifed in these type of comparrisisons, the common belief is that any old DVD player that says SACD on the front is as good as any other.

I obviously don't believe this to be the case. Maybe if someone has an Accuphase or dcs SACD player and we could compare it to a maxed out Linn LP12, then we'd have something. It'd still be subjective, but at least it'd be fair.

Over in the Rolling Stones thread, Rick G said he preferred his LPs of the Stones collection to the new SACD remasters. If I recall correctly, Rick has a very exotic turntable system and I think one of the $150 Sony DVD players for SACD. I don't presume to know that his answer would be difference if his SACD playback system equaled his vinyl system, but it's something I'd sure like to know.

 

[RickG]

Quote:

Originally posted by kelly Over in the Rolling Stones thread, Rick G said he preferred his LPs of the Stones collection to the new SACD remasters. If I recall correctly, Rick has a very exotic turntable system and I think one of the $150 Sony DVD players for SACD. I don't presume to know that his answer would be difference if his SACD playback system equaled his vinyl system, but it's something I'd sure like to know.

My TT is a Rega P3 w/Benz Glider cartridge. I guess it would be considered entry level high-end. The SACD player I use is the Sony SCD C555ES (hey, it's all in the profile). Don't get me wrong- I have quite a few SACD's and I love the sound. There’s just something about the punch of my vinyl rig that just "be bops". I wouldn’t even consider getting out of the SACD game due the future possibilities of the format. Obviously, at some point, there will be many more new releases on SACD than on LP. (Yes, I faith that the format will endure!)

Hey, they both sound very sweet. I can easily listen to either one.

 

[tanfenton]

Quote:

Originally posted by kelly If I recall correctly, Rick has a very exotic turntable system and I think one of the $150 Sony DVD players for SACD. I don't presume to know that his answer would be difference if his SACD playback system equaled his vinyl system, but it's something I'd sure like to know.

Exotic? A Rega Planar with a Benz Glider cartridge? Yes, the Benz is one of the nicer cartridges; the Planar, on the other hand, is still an entry level table. I'm not knocking it, I have one, and it did a hell of a job convincing me to "go analog," even with the much-maligned Grado Prestige cartridge.

(He has an SCD-C555ES.)

NGF

 

[kelly]

I don't really know where that Rega ranks. What would that go for new?

I have heard the 555 bettered, at least. Not to say that it would be worth it to you to upgrade yet... or that you'd necessarily like whatever else better than your Rega even if you did.

 

[RickG]

Quote:

Originally posted by kelly I don't really know where that Rega ranks. What would that go for new? I have heard the 555 bettered, at least. Not to say that it would be worth it to you to upgrade yet... or that you'd necessarily like whatever else better than your Rega even if you did.

Kelly, I bought my P3 new for around $750 and spent about the same on the cartridge. I also dropped about a grand on the EAR phono stage. The 555 is ok for now, but I'm sure I'll upgrade sometime in the future...

 

[kelly]

So it's $2500 worth of vinyl system to $1200 (retail) worth of SACD system, right?

Rick, could you go into any more detail about what you liked better about the vinyl experience with the Stones over the SACD? And was this on speakers or headphones? (The Stax?)

Sorry for picking on you Rick, but I think you've got the best comparrison yet since the Stones are, in my opinion, excellent recordings and you have the best version of the vinyl of the same recording and the ability to play the SACD layer of the CDs.

 

[RickG]

No problem, Kelly. I like the mids down trough the bottom on the vinyl system. Also, there just something so "natural" about the rhythm and pace of a decent TT setup that seems to convey the music so well. (I know this concept sounds strange but the other analogue guys know what I'm talking about.) On the other hand, the top end of the Stones stuff (and most any other SACD) sounds much sweeter and that is the reason that I prefer to listen to analogue with my speakers and digital with the Stax earspeakers. (Good question BTW).

 

[RickG]

Oops..duplicate post.

 

[kelly]

Rick
I'm confused--did you use the Stax for both the SACD and the vinyl when you did the comparrison?

And did you mean to say you generally prefer vinyl from your PSBs?

I think the bottom end of digital sources is helped a lot by better transport and by better power supplies and even power cables. I think you'll probably find this something you'll like better with better SACD players.

The pacing is a more difficult thing, I think. I was happy with that aspect of the Wadia system I heard but have not been so happy with that aspect of my XA777ES, even in SACD mode. It's difficult to describe but for me, it's as if the musicians are happy to play all of their notes with perfect precision but as if they're not real excited to be there playing for you. At the HeadRoom tour, I actually thought the Meridian 588 fell on the opposite side of that--where everything seemed almost too excited. My hope is that this will be addressed somewhat by the Superclock upgrade though I remain skeptical.

It has typically been the highs that I've hated most about the CD format in general. The harsh almost metallic ending to their furthest extensions that always remind you that you're listening to CD. This is something that I feel has been improved dramatically with SACD and it seems like you've found that to be true also. I didn't at all think the stock XA777ES was perfect even with SACD but I did feel that most of my serious complaints with the CD format had been remedied by SACD.

But alas, I only have very old memories of vinyl systems. I don't even know anyone in Dallas who still has a good system.

 

[RickG]

Quote:

Originally posted by kelly Rick I'm confused--did you use the Stax for both the SACD and the vinyl when you did the comparrison? And did you mean to say you generally prefer vinyl from your PSBs?

Sorry for the confusion...I edited my post and I hope it's clearer now.

I really think I prefer any digital source over the TT system with the Stax. The Stones and other CD's and SACD's exhibit more top end detail with the phones. The records, however, seem to have more punch with the speakers. This speaks of the rolled off character of the Stax and its match with my system. My TT with the Glider cartridge seems to err on the warm side...which works great with the psb's. This holds true for my Rega Planet CDP as well... (It’s a bit dark, but highly musical). When I upgrade either of my digital components, I plan on going with something much more forward and "top heavy" which, IMO will mesh with the traits of the Stax phones much nicer.

 

[Anders]

Kelly, I have a similar experience of CD sound tending to be harsh and metallic especially when listening to phones. Will not say that I have cured it but the following solutions have made some relief.
1. Powercables, especially a good one for the CDP. A power conditoner might give further improvement, but I am still so confused about this issue and those that seem best are rather expensive.
First I had power cables connected to an extension board with a zip cable to the wall. Thought that I had did the basics, but exchanging the zip for a power cable nearly doubled the effect. Hadn't expected that.
2. Treating the CDs with Auric Illuminator make the sound somewhat smoother with better soundstage.
3. Downgrading the IC made the sound smoother but with less detail. I don't see this as a solution but there could be an IC that is smoother without loss of detail.