ONKYO DP-X1 | Dual Sabre Dacs | Balanced | Sabre BTL Amp | MQA | DSD 256 | Android 5 |
Apr 13, 2016 at 12:19 AM Post #7,126 of 16,326
just got my onkyo yesterday, I'm lovin it very much!! 
smily_headphones1.gif
 
basshead.gif

I want to ask, I can't update my music app, and I still didn't receive any software update for my onkyo. I can't use x-dap link software in my laptop, I already connecting my onkyo to the laptop. any solution?
and one more thing, where's the screenshots stored? I could not find the app gallery, and do not appear on google photos?
thank you.
 
Apr 13, 2016 at 12:45 AM Post #7,127 of 16,326
I read about that but I don't think it's as clear cut as people think from outside news sources.

The guy's behind MQA clearly know what they are doing and I see them in the same light as object-orientated coders.

They seem to think it's noise that's in digital recordings that's causing issues, noise not from the recordings itself.

Anyway, have a read at this MASSIVE article published by Computer Audiophile; I'm still trawling through it!

Computer Audiophile: A Comprehensive Q&A With MQA's Bob Stuart

 
No, I had read the AES paper and other publications before. I think as a transparent container for high res, it has merits for sure. But the idea of downsampling or "burying in noise" is nothing new (see AURO 3D where multi-channel is encapsulated in two channels). 
 
The breakthrough improvement (if any) in sound quality will be if the AD process adheres to the theories set out by the MQA guys (Stuart et al.), i.e. better time resolution due to shorter ringing in the sampling kernel. For now there is no such content available, so it is not better than 24/384 as it stands, it can just be packaged smaller. 
 
Apr 13, 2016 at 12:54 AM Post #7,128 of 16,326
  just got my onkyo yesterday, I'm lovin it very much!! 
smily_headphones1.gif
 
basshead.gif

I want to ask, I can't update my music app, and I still didn't receive any software update for my onkyo. I can't use x-dap link software in my laptop, I already connecting my onkyo to the laptop. any solution?
and one more thing, where's the screenshots stored? I could not find the app gallery, and do not appear on google photos?
thank you.

update through the google play store 
 
Apr 13, 2016 at 2:33 AM Post #7,135 of 16,326
 
 
Thanks for the heads up everyone! Just updated my "Music" app and downloaded free MQA songs from 2L, the quality is superb and I'm sooo hooked to this particular song. Gives me goosebump, the vocal is just too real!

 
It is fantastic, isn't it. I've put it on repeat a few times. Not knowing anything about it, my cynical side was inclined to think that MQA would just be another heap of hype, but these sample tracks have made me more interested.
 
 
Quote:
Anyway, have a read at this MASSIVE article published by Computer Audiophile; I'm still trawling through it!

Computer Audiophile: A Comprehensive Q&A With MQA's Bob Stuart

 
Thanks for that link. I've printed it out (old fashioned I know) and will sit down with a pot of strong coffee to read it 
smile.gif

 
Apr 13, 2016 at 2:44 AM Post #7,136 of 16,326
I was also in the past mistaken about this and subsequent research confirms what you are saying. At one point I was misinterpreting the Snapdragon specifications and thinking that the SoC had a DAC onboard. As you said, all apps will have to go through the DP-X1 DAC(s). It is good that this has been clarified again as it was many pages back in the thread when the confusion/misunderstandings were clarified previously.


A lot of people confuse decoding file formats (CPU - SoC) and converting digital bitstream to analogue voltage (DAC).


It doesn't help that decoding and D/A conversion are called the same dang thing in Chinese. All the translations I had to correct...
 
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Apr 13, 2016 at 3:58 AM Post #7,137 of 16,326
Where is your source for this?

I ask because a CPU does not convert bit depth to voltage to output an analogue signal and I fear you may be misleading others to think so. Just your statement that a "DAC or R2R" will do it tells me you aren't clear on what each component does. R2R is a method of converting a digital signal to an analogue voltage by using resisters in a ladder switching the appropriate resistors on and off to replicate the voltage representing the analogue waveform over time. The other method is Delta Sigma but it uses one resistor switching very fast on and off to replicate the appropriate voltage. R2R is a DAC, just using a different method than Delta Sigma. A CPU simply does not have this hardware capability to output the appropriate voltage to output to an amplifier. The CPU WILL process the file format to a digital bit stream to feed the DAC, but the DAC must be used.

Plain and simple you need a DAC to convert the digital information to a voltage. I find it extremely hard to believe that Onkyo would actually implement a separate SoC (similar to the Sabre ES9118 with an integrated DAC and amplifier). This would be a third DAC (on top of their dual ESS9018k2m DACs) just so different apps can function, on top of the Snapdragon 801 2.3ghz Quadcore used for processing. There is nothing in the Qualcom 800 series specification briefs that says it has an integrated DAC. The audio capabilities are simply for decoding file formats, not converting digital to analogue, therefore the DAC is NOT bypassed when not using the native player.

The likely scenario is that the other apps are bootstrapped by the Android OS and simply not outputting the files bit perfect to the DAC like the native player will do. I'm guessing this is where you are confused.

Sigh, I knew this would occur.

You are correct in everything you have said. You have perfectly described a typical DAC.
Yet as I hinted at, I simplified my points from posts I wrote a long, long while back in this thread.

Yes, a CPU doesn't convert digital to analogue in full, but that was not my overall point.

Though I wasn't clear in my most recent post, only for the sake of succinct'ness, what I was trying to get at is this.

DAC's have multiple functions, two of which are important:

  • Receive a digital signal in full and decode it. This is where crucial timing errors, filters, pre/post ringing, noise shaping, and other functions occur,
  • Convert the decoded signal into an analogue signal.

So, you are again correct in how DAC's work, both Delta-Sigma and R2R.
But a CPU can be used to do at least the former of the two main purposes of a DAC function; decode a digital signal which then later will be passed along to a DAC, which will convert this into an analogue waveform (voltage), and send this to an amplifier.

It was that that I was referring to, the decoding a digital signal prior to making an analogue signal. The decoding itself.
A DAC can do this of course, but some DAC's have poorer decoding sections (noise shaping, filters, timing, etc). This is where apps such as Neutron and PowerAmp come into play; they use software based algorithms in conjunction with a CPU to decode digital signals, apply various filters etc, then pass that to a DAC for analogue conversion (voltage) only.
In this case, the DAC is only used for its second function, convert decoded digital signal into analogue.

Source? The app developers behind Neutron and UAPP, and past studies in Software Engineering.

Just to add, I really did try to condense a very huge, interesting and complicated topic in the best way I could for everyone, so I apologise for the simplified descriptions overall.

I hope this makes sense.
 
Apr 13, 2016 at 4:12 AM Post #7,138 of 16,326
apologies if this has already be answered but can the Onkyo DP-X1 play SACD ISO files please?



It cannot, but it will play DSD.


If you have a well ripped SACD with all layers intact in ISO, use this app:
Sonore ISO2DSD

I used this on my Nine Inch Nails 'The Downward Spiral' and Pink Floyd's 'The Dark Side of the Moon (30th Anniversary)' SACD.
Originally I used my friends PS3 a while back.
My friend and I ripped my two above SACD's into ISO only via 1st gen SACD PS3. It's just recently that I converted these ISO's into DSD (DSF).

You must make sure when creating an ISO that the SACD layer is retained. I have never attempted to try this on a PC because I don't believe CD drives can rip an SACD layer, but it's been a while since I check if that's changed or not.
 
Apr 13, 2016 at 4:17 AM Post #7,139 of 16,326

Sigh, I knew this would occur.

You are correct in everything you have said. You have perfectly described a typical DAC.
Yet as I hinted at, I simplified my points from posts I wrote a long, long while back in this thread.

Yes, a CPU doesn't convert digital to analogue in full, but that was not my overall point.

Though I wasn't clear in my most recent post, only for the sake of succinct'ness, what I was trying to get at is this.

DAC's have multiple functions, two of which are important:

  • Receive a digital signal in full and decode it. This is where crucial timing errors, filters, pre/post ringing, noise shaping, and other functions occur,
  • Convert the decoded signal into an analogue signal.

So, you are again correct in how DAC's work, both Delta-Sigma and R2R.
But a CPU can be used to do at least the former of the two main purposes of a DAC function; decode a digital signal which then later will be passed along to a DAC, which will convert this into an analogue waveform (voltage), and send this to an amplifier.

It was that that I was referring to, the decoding a digital signal prior to making an analogue signal. The decoding itself.
A DAC can do this of course, but some DAC's have poorer decoding sections (noise shaping, filters, timing, etc). This is where apps such as Neutron and PowerAmp come into play; they use software based algorithms in conjunction with a CPU to decode digital signals, apply various filters etc, then pass that to a DAC for analogue conversion (voltage) only.
In this case, the DAC is only used for its second function, convert decoded digital signal into analogue.

Source? The app developers behind Neutron and UAPP, and past studies in Software Engineering.

Just to add, I really did try to condense a very huge, interesting and complicated topic in the best way I could for everyone, so I apologise for the simplified descriptions overall.

I hope this makes sense.


No. Digital filters within the DAC do not provide the same function as decoding file formats, filters, and DSP in the CPU. A DAC can not decode file formats. You are simply mixing the two terms and have spawned many people to think the DAC(s) in the DP-X1 are bypassed by certain apps, which can not be the case. Certain apps may apply DSP filters to improve the sound but they aren't doing the same filtering as what the DAC is doing (which is dealing with the inherent noise of the Delta Sigma approach). Without the filtering (noise shaping) in the Delta Sigma DAC the sound would be horribly noisy and no one would purchase the DP-X1. The two go hand in hand and neither is taking over for the other.

You are correct, it is a very complex subject, so best not to generalize and confuse people is all I'm saying.
 
Apr 13, 2016 at 4:18 AM Post #7,140 of 16,326
It doesn't help that decoding and D/A conversion are called the same dang thing in Chinese. All the translations I had to correct...


Ha! Really?! :D
 

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