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Objectivists board room

Discussion in 'Sound Science' started by joe bloggs, May 28, 2015.
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  1. U-3C
    So, always been a big believer of finding a solidly designed motherboard and using onboard audio when getting a new computer, rather than allocating a decent amount for a dedicated audio solution when all one needs is a clean headphone jack to listen to music. This is especially the case after I've purchased much respected "giant killers" that cost the same price as the entire mobo and still has more distortion and audible noise, while being less convenient, elegant, and has less features. :p

    If I move the front audio cable in my case by about 1 cm, I will pick up lots of noise, but I've anchored the cable in just the right position to be more silent than some ultra low noise dac/amps who claim to be a perfect pairing for the SE-864. :p

    Recently read this:


    Kinda sad actually. A mid range motherboard can offer more than what so many audiophiles heavily swear by.
  2. castleofargh Contributor
    while I'm one who never understood why something inside a box couldn't be as good as something outside of it with a long cable, and have argued that point with way too many audiophiles, you have to keep in mind that what he measured is a line out measured as such(unloaded). meaning it shows the DAC specs which we knew for a while now, can be very fine with a 5$ chipset.

    the amp section of some mobos are often not so great under a reasonably low load. some are garbage. some are fine but have like 30 or up to 100ohm at the output, making them less than ideal if you like the original signature of the 846. a few do happen to be fine and nowadays can even have rather low noise and low impedance output, but it's still not the standard based on my own experience. also for the EMI/RFI paranoids, opamps are a place where such noises can really creep in and be amplified a lot, so IMO they deserve some sort of casing or shielding to try and mitigate that potential issue. if in the open on the mobo, I could see why an amp output wouldn't necessarily measure great.
    U-3C likes this.
  3. U-3C

    Oh yes, definitely.

    And even though more marketing is spent on the audio side of motherboards, especially higher end motherboards, it's pretty hard to find details on how any of them perform.

    In fact, many onboard audio has a shiny metal casing with etched marketing terms to show off that it's shielded, but how well that performs in real life is mostly unknown.

    Still, will refer to these things whenever someone is planning to dedicate a few hundred dollars to buying an audio setup when they build a pc, even if they never heard how the setup may sound like. Don't want anyone wasting money in the case they can't hear a difference with what they use. In my case, I can't so I do regret spending money on this stuff.

    Thanks for the info!
  4. FrostyP
    Headphone, DAC and Amp measurements have become more of a thing but I haven't been able ro find much DAP measurements yet, anywhere I should be looking? Also are there any manufacturers that provide messurements if you ask?
  5. bigshot
    Ken Rockwell has done a lot of measurements of Apple DAPs
    FrostyP likes this.
  6. artnoi
    And most of them are so good that we should not worry about.
  7. bigshot
    I don't think there's any reason to worry about DAPs, DACs or amps in general. If they have sufficient power to push your transducers and they have the features you need, they should be fine.
  8. castleofargh Contributor

    Headphoniaks had a bunch of the DAPs they sell, reviewed and measured pretty extensively into various loads. most reviews were only available in Spanish, and they don't seem to publish the same extensive stuff anymore(or maybe they just have successfully lost me with their navigation changes over the years?).
    Last edited: May 28, 2018
    FrostyP likes this.
  9. Steve999
    Ha! I was here when Sound Science got its shaky, wobbly start! It was first perceived as a place where folks like us should go so we wouldn’t mess up all of HeadFi, and if I remember right it was first a pipe dream, and then they kept talking about getting rid of it. After many years of not being on HeadFi I am very pleased to see the quality of discourse here. I used to visit Hydrogen Audio a lot too but as the compression codecs improved they settled most of the evolving topics of interest and it got dull. So here you are an intentionally semi-quarantined hiding place of good information. However, taking the high road as to conduct is not only more persausive to others, it defines you much more than what you know about science and audio. Defeating an audio subjectivist on the merits is generally like shooting fish in a barrel. The trick is to do it calmly and to a high standard of conduct. You will draw fire because you are threatening the source of income of some and the cherished beliefs of others. I am not sympathetic of the merchants but I am sympathetic of those with cherished beliefs who are subject to a rude awakening. You are in the odd position of actually being able to do a lot of good here and show them by example a different way of approaching audio and even life.

    Last edited: Jun 1, 2018
    headdict and sonitus mirus like this.
  10. bigshot
    We are the inside and they are the outside of Head Fi.
  11. castleofargh Contributor
    IMO arguments end up being mostly about overconfidence and pride. only after my interlocutor and I make the effort to put those 2 aside, can we start exchanging more honest viewpoints, find out our respective level of information on a subject, and see who has the better demonstration/evidence/diagnostic...
    in that process we still have to deal with the gaps in knowledge. and it's a real challenge to write down an explanation at the level the other can understand, while still keeping it rigorous enough for facts not to break under all the simplifications and approximations.
    if it's too technical for the person, most of the time he'll just shut down as some garbage defense mechanism. if it's overly simplistic, you always get that one guy who gets offended that you didn't already know how much of an expert he is.
    and of course we also have to account for the guys who just came to claim random BS, and never for a second considered second guessing themselves or register anything contradicting what they said. to anybody wondering how painful cognitive dissonance can be and how good people are at putting their head in the sand to avoid facing it, an audio forum has really good demonstrations of that.

    so even when we happen to have solid evidence and a complete rational, leading to straightforward conclusions(which really isn't systematic), it's still an adventure to try and carry the idea across.
    we also have to deal with people who want to play the game of logic like big boys, but never bothered learning the rules. not even stuff as obvious as not making a claim without having a single evidence to support it. or to avoid cherry picking causality. that part is the most annoying to me. because it's pretty much the RTFM of reasoning. and it's crazy that any modern society can still fail so hard with education that some people end up unable to think beyond heuristics and "my daddy said" for anything in their lives. I mean, some dude in ancient times already had some pretty clear ideas about critical thinking, so it's not exactly a new or complicated thing.
  12. krismusic Contributor
    Glmoneydawg likes this.
  13. Joe Bloggs Contributor
  14. Joe Bloggs Contributor
    That was way too real for an april 1st prank. I can't laugh at all
  15. U-3C

    If it wasn't for then end, I would have totally bought it as real...
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2019
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