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briskly

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What exactly do you mean by leakage in the headphone leading to limited bass extension? The iSines are open back and doesn't require a tight seal from the tip, but the bass is well extended.
Leakage in the chamber facing the eardrum. Free airflow out of the chamber at lower frequencies limits the bass response unless the driver is compliant enough that its excursion would increase in a leaky chamber to sustain low frequency pressure. If the stiffness of the driver is far greater than the cavity, the excursion does not significantly change and a large loss of bass can be observed.

1. In an open headphone? Wouldn't the open back make any intentional leakage moot? I know that the trend lately is for closed designs to have intentional leakage built in so as to decrease reliance on a tight seal, but I was of the understanding that dynamic drivers have poor bass extension in open enclosures because they have trouble producing output below their resonant frequency.

2. Above about 10 kHz, this is certainly true for every headphone, and it's also outside the guaranteed area for measurements so it's probably safe to ignore what happens here unless the average output is markedly deviant from the norm. Below that, though, there are headphones that measure reasonably smoothly and ones that don't. Maybe the average trend line is the most important thing, but there's certainly better and worse performance here.

3. The source of measurements doesn't matter, as long as the measurements are internally consistent. Tyll's raw measurements universally show the peak at ~3.5 kHz in headphones, and at ~2.5 kHz in IEMs. For that matter, all the raw measurements I've seen elsewhere also have the peak at around 3.5 kHz in headphones, so if it's actually supposed to be 2.7 kHz, then all these measuring rigs have the same error. And even if they do, this is irrelevant because the IEM measurements are still offset by about 1 kHz from the headphone ones, and it's this offset--not the actual numbers--that's important. Significantly, Tyll's dummy head stuck in a room with speakers measured the peak around 3.5 kHz, implying that where it places this peak for headphones corresponds to what a listener actually hears with speakers or with live music. The IEMs are the odd one out here.

3.5. The 1 kHz bump in electrostats and planars is in comparison to other headphones, which generally don't have this feature. The compensation shouldn't matter, as the difference exists regardless of the compensation used. One may of course argue that this level of energy around 1 kHz is actually correct, and that headphones that don't have it are less accurate in this area. Tyll's new compensation curve incorporates this very assumption, in fact. However, that of course is debatable and it nonetheless doesn't obviate the existence of the 1 kHz lift as a distinct feature shared by electrostats and planars and rarely seen elsewhere.

4. Indeed, this is the difficulty in getting an IEM to sound correct. Unfortunately, because of the physics involved with shortening and stopping up the ear canal, they struggle. Additionally, an individual listener might prefer a deeper or shallower insertion depth or different tips from the ones the IEM was designed and tuned for, and the depth and fit might vary significantly each time the IEM is used. These factors will create variations in performance from user to user and from session to session. It's a difficult set of problems to overcome, and it's kind of amazing that any IEM manages to sound good.

5. I'll defer to the consensus of the thread here, since this is a topic I could stand to learn more about. I'll submit some points for discussion, though. In my understanding, treble spikes generally produce ringing, but at least in the case of the DT880, this doesn't seem to be the case. It has significant spikes at ~6 kHz and ~8.5 kHz, but I've seen CSD charts (elsewhere, in places unmentionable) that show it having a smooth, even decay across its entire frequency range. Additionally, its square wave measurements have only a small section of clear ringing at the beginning, which resolves to a flat line relatively quickly. Its measurements here mimic those of the HD 6x0 family, which does not have any significant treble spikes. Is there perhaps something going on here that has nothing to do with the treble, that's similar between the two headphones and which produces such similar square waves? Why don't the DT880's spikes ring the way they do on many other headphones? And, probably the most important question, how much of this can we actually hear?
Opening the back alone does not. The ear cavity leak is the very reason for difficulties in pressurizing below the fundamental. This is deliberate in typical open backed headphone design. This may illustrate the point more clearly.
Leakage.png

The ear imposes its directional transfer function on the input sound. This is generally preserved in headphones, save some loading of the ear by closing it off with a headphone. If the canals are shorter than the average, the ear resonance is shifted upward when tested by a far off loudspeaker and when subjected to a headphone. The IEM must reconstruct the subject's open ear resonances that are not present.

Time and frequency compose a conjugate variable pair, and their response functions are related one-to-one to the other by Fourier and inverse Fourier transform. While we tend to ignore the phase component in practice and only consider the magnitude, headphones operate in mostly minimum phase.
A key property of conjugate variables is described by Heisenberg's uncertainty principle. A resonance that is sharply focused around around a particular frequency cannot be localized sharply in time, and vice versa.
 
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post-13764725
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Niouke

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reading this sub forum was a big mistake, now I can't stop arguing with people recommending tubes, hirez, and expensive cables :frowning2:
 
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post-13765149
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bigshot

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Haha! We waste an awful lot of time on that around here!
 
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Argyris

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reading this sub forum was a big mistake, now I can't stop arguing with people recommending tubes, hirez, and expensive cables :frowning2:
I've long since learned that arguing with people about that stuff is pointless, at least in the context that one subjectivist is evangelizing the stuff to another likely will-be subjectivist who is taking the recommendation seriously enough to consider buying something. Some people don't really need a lot of convincing because they already want to believe what others are telling them, for whatever reason. There's no point trying to shift these sort; they're going to do whatever they want. I used to have a "saving people" instinct (I was "the friend" quite often growing up), but years of watching it blow up in my face or else accomplish nothing have made me quite jaded. My attitude these days is that if people don't want to put in the effort to research a subject thoroughly and want to rush to throwing money or personal investment at something they barely understand, well, that's their prerogative.

The single exception I make is when a person is being bullschiitted into believing they need to spend hundreds or thousands of dollars on backend equipment in addition to <headphone X>, or else just "not bother" buying anything at all. At that point, I usually step in and offer my experience, which is that I didn't need to spend a dime extra on top of the cost of the headphone to get great sound. In this instance, the person probably doesn't want to spend the ridiculous money, and the vote of confidence that they'll get a great experience without doing so is often enough to get them to at least try the headphone instead of walking away entirely, maybe even writing off the hobby as too expensive or impenetrably choked with snake oil.
 
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post-13765439
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castleofargh

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my stand on this is normally simple, lying to ourselves is our problem, but lying to others is always wrong and ignorance is not an excuse. in real life with real people in front of me, it makes for a pretty fair balance between "mind your own business" and "let's warn that guy to fact check what he's being told". but on a forum where every opinion is stated as a damn claim, almost everybody is lying to some extend. even if it is only by taking things out of context, the end result is almost relentless misinformation. and we're also doing it in here TBH, the only difference is that we like to have a little evidence in our claim sandwich. so chances are that we're full of crap less often than those making up stuff on the top of their head.
and it's not that people love to lie(well some do), it's just that making empty claims all day long has become the norm on social media. so when you do care about facts, you slowly but surely go mad and banned, or you learn to look the other way. like I do in the majority of this forum. I don't have the energy, or enough safety from my quasimodo status, to survive reacting sincerely to every obvious lie or foolish claim I read. it's just not viable.
instead I tell myself that the purpose is to be a little less wrong at the end of the day, so even a little counts (I take the victories I can afford).
 
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bigshot

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My purpose is to help folks avoid mistakes I've made over the years and give them information that will actually have practical application for them. I'm more than happy to share info, but if they resist and shut down listening to what I'm saying, or resort to disingenuous argumentativeness, I'm not going to beat my head against the wall. Of course if people do act like the hind end of a mule, I'm obliged to treat them like one. It's their choice. But I always try to have a little fun with it.
 
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post-13770000
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JaeYoon

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I seriously need to block myself from reading threads on this website sometimes.

I'm seeing someone on another thread with perfectly fine gear. But they are on the saddle. Because someone said "oh yeah, I just borrowed *insert your gear* here from my friend! but mine sounds better! You gotta use balanced and a good cable though!"

"Oh really, I'm going to sell it now!!!"

Yet both pieces of gear are what I would consider good enough. I realize how stupid this hobby can become. Perfectly fine gear will be discarded and thrown away, because he said, she said is much better than yours!
Soon they will throw that gear that get into the selling bin too cause someone else said, "well this sounds way better than that!"

I need to stop visit other threads outside of this place or something. I'm beginning to lose my brain cells at an alarming rate....
 
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post-13770149
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Argyris

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You can spend your whole life chasing after people who determinedly choose to walk off cliffs, or you can just resign yourself to laughing at the splat sound they make as they hit the bottom, at least if, like me, you're jaded and have both a dark sense of humor and an occasional penchant for schadenfraude.

For some time now, I've used Head-Fi mostly as an informational resource, rather than getting too attached to what was happening in most of the non-general discussion threads. And whenever I do see something patently ridiculous, I just shake my head and repeat something my father always says: against inspired lunacy, what can you do?
 
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bigshot

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A big problem in the audiophile community is trying to come up with solutions before they've defined what the problem is. For instance, some people spend a lot of money on reducing the amount of jitter. But do they know what jitter sounds like, and can they hear that in their system? I wonder if anyone knows what jitter sounds like. I sure don't. The snake oil salesmen want people to think of solutions to non-existent problems. They encourage it by publishing reams of articles detailing solutions to problems that don't exist. Audiophiles double down on better and better specs, even when it goes far beyond the threshold of audibility.

Whenever someone asks "do I need this?" I always ask "What do you hear in your system that needs improvement?" If I get a clear answer to that question, 99 times out of a 100 the answer relates to frequency response and EQ is the solution. But some audiophiles don't want to hear that.
 
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post-13771222
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JaeYoon

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You can spend your whole life chasing after people who determinedly choose to walk off cliffs, or you can just resign yourself to laughing at the splat sound they make as they hit the bottom, at least if, like me, you're jaded and have both a dark sense of humor and an occasional penchant for schadenfraude.

For some time now, I've used Head-Fi mostly as an informational resource, rather than getting too attached to what was happening in most of the non-general discussion threads. And whenever I do see something patently ridiculous, I just shake my head and repeat something my father always says: against inspired lunacy, what can you do?
I should do the same! I'll avoid getting involved in those discussions too! But I will screenshot and collect hilarious posts for times when I'm feeling sad and use those as cheer up moments!

A big problem in the audiophile community is trying to come up with solutions before they've defined what the problem is. For instance, some people spend a lot of money on reducing the amount of jitter. But do they know what jitter sounds like, and can they hear that in their system? I wonder if anyone knows what jitter sounds like. I sure don't. The snake oil salesmen want people to think of solutions to non-existent problems. They encourage it by publishing reams of articles detailing solutions to problems that don't exist. Audiophiles double down on better and better specs, even when it goes far beyond the threshold of audibility.

Whenever someone asks "do I need this?" I always ask "What do you hear in your system that needs improvement?" If I get a clear answer to that question, 99 times out of a 100 the answer relates to frequency response and EQ is the solution. But some audiophiles don't want to hear that.
This is why I love you all.

Reading in another thread for audio equipment. Someone made in a post a little back just like this(no doubt this happens often).
"Man this is so much better than Version 1. New flagship has SNR of *insert Number here* let's say 124, while old one only has 116! This one is so much better! I'm selling my old FS product. OMG guys, because of 8 extra points! I can hear some serious instrument seperation, it just sounds more lively and cohesive, and brings you with the band! it's like right next to me guys!!!!"

If you mention those solutions bigshot, you already know the answer. they don't want to hear it. They will tell you they can hear the difference, just you need better headphones in order to hear it!

Don't forget, you need Dual Dacs too! and Balanced output and an audiophile balanced cable!
Also need some audiophile bumpers so you can keep your desktop setup from touching the ground too!!! You wouldn't want any nasty crosstalk or EMI even though this isn't a gigantic studio and every audio component is like right next to each other.

not like at those studios who can benefit from balanced cables, and usually their audio systems are separated at a long distance from each other.

Nonsense! us audiophiles can hear that Balanced increases soundstage and makes things sound so much better! more details and resolution!.
 
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post-13771289
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bigshot

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The logic to audiophoolery is... If you can't hear a night or day difference A) Your equipment isn't good enough, spend more or B) You are deaf, enjoy lousy sound. They never even consider C) Maybe there isn't a difference at all.
 
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bigshot

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When the site design changed and all the bans were lifted, I poked my head in here and found that the sound science forum had become pretty moribund. It didn't take long to stir it back to life. Traffic means ad impressions, which translates to dollars for HeadFi. All of us are creating content to help support that revenue. The system is working again. Hooray!
 
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post-13772862
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Bytor123

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When the site design changed and all the bans were lifted, I poked my head in here and found that the sound science forum had become pretty moribund. It didn't take long to stir it back to life. Traffic means ad impressions, which translates to dollars for HeadFi. All of us are creating content to help support that revenue. The system is working again. Hooray!
Glad to see you back, always enjoyed reading your posts.
 
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post-13773998
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headwhacker

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When the site design changed and all the bans were lifted, I poked my head in here and found that the sound science forum had become pretty moribund. It didn't take long to stir it back to life. Traffic means ad impressions, which translates to dollars for HeadFi. All of us are creating content to help support that revenue. The system is working again. Hooray!
Then Head-fi should pay you for continuing to create content on this space.
 
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bigshot

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I think they've been benefitting from my content for a long time. There are certain keywords that kick up my posts in google searches near the top. That's fine. I participate and make my contributions to the community. If it all works and everyone is happy, that's a good thing.
 
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