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Objectivists board room

Discussion in 'Sound Science' started by joe bloggs, May 28, 2015.
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  1. Joe Bloggs Contributor
  2. Niouke
    is any of you guys on the facebook group? a certain "Kennett Ismael Ylitalo" is spreading sound science with brute force :D
     
  3. Niouke
    I'm arguing with HiFi experten about sound coloring cables, has anyone got studies I can link to them?
     
  4. bigshot
  5. pinnahertz
    Yet there could be conditions where the coat hanger may have an audible effect. Widely spaced conductors present higher inductive reactance. So if the coat hanger wires were spaced widely, and the speaker load was such that the load and coat hanger inductance formed a filter, you may get a bit of audible change.

    The seminal paper on this is "Amplifier-Loudspeaker Interfacing" by R. A. Greiner, JAES Vol. 26 No. 5, May 1980. He did full network analysis on various cable types cable from #18 rip cord through 12ga speaker cable to welding cable. Short story, speaker cables aren't transmission lines, normal cables have no impact unless they are too long. RG9 coax performed the best, but was of no advantage. The paper is a good read, well worth owning to clear up the cable mess.
     
  6. bigshot
    You've totally missed the point. If these people couldn't discern a coat hanger from a high end cable in a listening test, what's the point of worrying about cables? It's not suggesting that everyone run out and wire their systems with coat hangers. It doesn't take a technical manual to know that just about any cable you go out and buy is going to do the job as well as any other.

    I really don't know why people argue about cables. If a cable sounds different, there is probably something wrong with it, regardless of how much money it cost. There really is nothing to argue about, but people insist on overcomplicating what is a simple and obvious truth. Either they work and they're transparent or they don't work properly and they degrade the sound. I've never run across a cable that colors the sound. If I did, I'd return it as defective.

    Also I've never run across a person who argues that cables matter who really wants to know the truth. If they did, they would have just done a simple blind comparison and found out for themselves. They're just arguing with no purpose in mind and no intention of learning from the discussion. I have better things to do than waste my time with that.
     
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2017
    JaeYoon likes this.
  7. castleofargh Contributor
    red cables have more bass! what that's not the question?
    it's the same thing as with weird IEMs impedances and amps. if the cable is so wrong that it impacts the damping ratio or whatever in a relatively significant way, then stuff could happen for real. it's another case of those things perfectly achievable if we keep putting the wrong gears together. now is it normal? nope. is it a sign that my cable is super duper great? could just as well be the other way around.
    and same as with amps of different impedances, many people will go "this cable is warmer than that other one", but change the stuff on both ends and we could go from absolutely no audible difference between the cables, to even getting the opposite result. so even people who do get weird circumstances will most of the time shoot themselves in the foot with the wrong conclusions about the cable as an independent entity having a sound.
    and of course we have the usual legion of people who didn't test anything in a way that allows them to claim anything, so there is no reason to argue about their claims. even they don't really know if it's real or not.

    oh and one amusing possibility to add. the situation where the cable was part of the design and it has specific specs far from the usual ... IDK, maybe 0.2ohm wire. I wouldn't say it's common, but it certainly did happen.

    as for studies, how about almost any book about electricity? I'm only half joking, there isn't much to say about a cable without looking at it as an electrical component in a circuit. and usually there isn't much to say after we've done that ^_^ it's a cable, not a fusion reactor.
     
    headdict likes this.
  8. Strangelove424
    I found a website some time ago that hosted sample files of different cables recorded into an ADC. A source file for the tracks was also hosted, so I created null tracks from these samples, comparing the cables to source and to each other. Here are the results:

    Source vs Mogami: http://s000.tinyupload.com/index.php?file_id=68581392178684946276

    Mogami vs. Gotham: http://s000.tinyupload.com/index.php?file_id=91164311178382011326

    Mogami vs Vovox: http://s000.tinyupload.com/index.php?file_id=97978514898506057307

    Source vs. Sommer: http://s000.tinyupload.com/index.php?file_id=07868240129804662975

    Sommer vs Vovox: http://s000.tinyupload.com/index.php?file_id=88729851428829259824

    Source vs Vovox: http://s000.tinyupload.com/index.php?file_id=24001143786121741938

    Vovox vs Gotham: http://s000.tinyupload.com/index.php?file_id=15916999533341519718
     
    bigshot likes this.
  9. bigshot
    Years ago in this forum and others I went around and around in circles arguing with folks about compressed audio. They swore up and down that lossy sounded "night and day" different than lossless. I could argue on specs and tests, but they kept coming back to their anecdotal impressions. So I gave up arguing with them. Now when someone starts on that, I just offer them a simple comparison test. I offer them a FLAC file with ten samples in it. One is uncompressed 16/44.1 the rest are various bitrates of Frauenhofer MP3, LAME MP3 and AAC. I tell them to listen and rank the ten from best to worst. That usually ends the conversation, because if they really want to know, they take the test. If they don't want to know they say they're too busy to do the test and drop the subject. Saves me an awful lot of time arguing against deliberate ignorance.

    Strange, you should randomize those samples and hide what they are and make people tell you which sounds best. It will shut them up fast.
     
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2017
    artnoi and Strangelove424 like this.
  10. Strangelove424
    Good idea! It's too late for me to change it now since the files themselves and the file descriptions I wrote at tinyupload give away the answers, but next time we get a cable fanatic in here, I'll remove all the names and post this a second time as an ABX.
     
  11. pinnahertz
    No, I have not missed any point, more likely you have. The test is fine, valid, and shows in general there are no differences. However, there was a coat-hanger fad in the high end for a while, where they actually liked and sought after them. Because of what the are, they often placed them a foot or more apart introducing inductance, which could, often did have an effect. It's one rare case where the "cable" does matter, and is audible. It's simple electronics, not audiophelia. And it's the extremes that will bite you, not the usual common stuff like 20' of any old 16ga wire. My favorite speaker cable is electric lawnmower extension cord, big, long, cheap, etc....
    Agreed, so long as the cable is "normal" and of "normal length". But people will argue the "sound" of cables because of expectation bias and their complete inability to perform an ABX test on speaker cables (that's not easy to do). Thats why the exotics look so strange. I made some exotic cable out of some 12/2 stranded wire I picked up at Home Depot. Used exotic looking connectors, shrink tubing, blah blah. People thought they cost a grand, and sounded like that! No, the cost $25, and sounded just like any other 12/2 wire. Just think of what RG9 with some huge porcelain fittings would look/sound like!
     
  12. Niouke
  13. artnoi
    I've had very hard time telling apart to sources of equal nominal output impedance and similar looking specs eg THD.
    So my question is, do good solid state amps of equal output impedance should theoretically sound the same on same headphones?
    If noise is not be taken into account (ie extra warmth) of course.

    Well I've done some searching but couldn't find an existing thread on sound science about this.
     
  14. pinnahertz
    Yes.
    Noise doesn't necessarily equate to an impression of warmth. Possibly "air", whatever that is. Good SS amps should have noise below the source, shouldn't be a factor.
     
  15. artnoi
    52B41977-9BC3-43AB-A827-3571A0CEDC08.jpeg
    Well I have some issues with my amp now.
    I have got a new desktop DAC/amp from Yulong Audio. The manufacturer provided many measurements regarding THD (without specified loads except for power output) but doesn’t state the Z out nor would they reply my emails, so I bought the DAC/amp blindfolded. After getting it I found out it has serious bass boom and treble roll-off on my 250Ohm DT880 that’s not present in any zero-ohm source. I then tried to contact every email I could find on the internet and finally one from YA replied me and said Z out is 10< ohm.
    Should this be the reason for the distortion I’m experiencing?
    I think Yulong is really not fair to provide critical information of their products. And now that even my 250Ohm Beyer suffers a lot from its Z out, I’m very excited to try it with lower impedance headphones (I’m getting k7XX tmr, note that K7xx has overall smoother impedance and phase measurement).

    And also I want to properly measure the Z out, anyone here has done it before? Attached is photo of my amp’s headphone output circuitry
     
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