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Objectivists board room

Discussion in 'Sound Science' started by joe bloggs, May 28, 2015.
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  1. Brooko Contributor
    People do have different sensitivities and preferences though. That is what makes us both human and unique. And we know that tubes can add even order distortion which can sound pleasing and soften peaks for some individuals. Whats the harm, and where does that go against science? Some possibly wouldn't recognise they are adding distortion (or may even be loathe to accept they are), but where is the harm? Ultimately it comes down to what its pleasing to the individual. I've had a couple of tube amps, and love the tonality they bring. I know its added distortion - and I don't care :)
    White Lotus and Argyris like this.
  2. castleofargh Contributor
    personal sensitivity is really a massive subject in itself and can involve so much science and psychology. but as long as people relate only to a preference, it's a matter of impression and taste, not objective reality about the gear. so I see nothing wrong. even less so when in an impression thread. ^_^
    on the other hand, when a poster clearly assumes impressions and objective reality can only be one and the same, my eyes start bleeding and I speak in some old forgotten language. :imp: but it comes down to the allegory of the cave. a guy has seen the world through his eyes and ears from his point of view all his life, and ignorance make him think his interpretation of the world is the real physical world we all live in. the issue isn't technical and the claims about headphone or amplifier are merely symptoms of a much bigger misconception about the world. its subjectivism, as in "I'm a living example, but I don't understand it".

    to me sharing impressions and mistaking impression for reality, those are 2 very different situations that sadly often get mixed together simply by the turn of a sentence(I do the same so I can't really be angry at others for that). being myself really bitchy about 4 and 10khz I wouldn't shut up about it if I was to share my impressions about gears on a regular basis. the massive difference is that I never assumed the entire world had to be as sensitive as I am, to the point of declaring that a headphone has too much of something as soon as I feel it does. I'll do that once I am supreme leader and planetary general, but even then it will only be a show of power, not my personal delusion about the material world.
    U-3C likes this.
  3. bigshot
    Whenever I look to improve my sound system, first of all I take stock of what I have. I list the weak points in my system and prioritize them. Then I go down the list and try to research why I might be having those problems and how I might correct them. Most people don't do that. They decide they want better sound, so they just go out and buy a more expensive DAC or amp. Random improvements make for random results.
  4. pinnahertz
    ...or no results at all.
  5. U-3C
    Oh there's always a result. Their savings account just lost some weight. :wink:
  6. bigshot
    ... which can encourage placebo.
    artnoi likes this.
  7. artnoi
    I wish Thais knew about this thread.
    No one here believes me about how cable's differences should be inaudible to human ears. And by no one I meant so literally. They mod their earbuds with MMCX connectors so that they can change the buds' sound to suit their moods. They elaborately discredit big names' cables and praise their DIYs. Some of them even have more than one amp in a chain, the worst I have seen had a DAC fed to 'tube' portable amp and a SS amp. Some are even willing to modify an amp or DAC to make it sound better, and thus this is why they buy (very) cheap Chinese products so that they can swap components eg opamps and capacitor without regret should they break it in the process. And when I invite them to a DBT and ABX no one agreed to come, claiming I'm a young pervert who still has a lot to learn.

    The country's flagship store still vividly describe how DACs and cables sound. And they made a video about how silver sounds much different to copper. https://www.munkonggadget.com/catalog/list/

    Oh and they mostly enjoy earbuds with tons of distortion and roll offs. None of the 'hot' headphones/earphones in Thailand sound neutral or uncolored. The Etymotic ER4 series is unknown to the audiophile community here. And no one reads measurement (be it about FR, Impedance, etc) or understands about objectivity.

    I just want to be a nice citizen.. so that they could save more money to buy more music to enjoy, rather than expensive fancy equipments that introduce placebo effects.
  8. bigshot
    For some people audio isn't about listening.
    CarlosUnchained and artnoi like this.
  9. Yuri Korzunov
    Last edited: Sep 4, 2017
  10. artnoi
    I think a simple test should be enough to debunk or disprove their irrational beliefs. But I'll control what I can, matched volume, sighting, and so on. Anyway any of you here is willing to instruct me on how to properly conduct an ABX test in casual settings?
  11. pinnahertz
    The basic methodology for an ABX test doesn't change, but the method of performing the comparison changes depending on what you are comparing. So, what are you comparing?
  12. Yuri Korzunov
    In general, there are no "ideal/final" tests. But any simple test will "debunked" like subject, that "debunked" by the test.

    To perform serious ("debunking-stable") test need next steps:

    1. Deep learn theory of tested subject for avoiding of mistake. For your case it include cables, amplifiers, speakers.

    2. Develop methodic with accounting of conditions.

    3. Perform several trials.

    4. Correct methodic.

    5. Perform test and record protocol.

    Remember about big numbers of trials, that are obligatory for ear tests.

    For first step you can check Archimago's blog, there was cable comparison, if I don't mistaken.
    Last edited: Sep 4, 2017
  13. bigshot
    You would get the same response if you applied any kind of a control to the comparison. They're covering their rears. Most of the time a full double blind test isn't necessary. It's only really needed in cases that are too close to tell for sure. Differences that are big enough to notice just need controls to make sure you're comparing apples to apples. Most of the time the snake oil peddlers are claiming night and day differences. That should be readily apparent, but when you sit down and do a simple comparison the differences disappear. At that point, let the person claiming there is a difference prove it. People make way too much fuss over comparison tests. They aren't a big deal and they aren't difficult. They're just useful.
    Argyris and CarlosUnchained like this.
  14. artnoi
    Thanks for detailed replies!
    Headphone and interconnect cables are to be tested, on Saturday.
    Interestingly now I have 3 participants.
    I'm not trying to make conclusion, but I just want them to finally realize what their minds are capable of, so that there'll be more advocates of objectivism in Thai audio community.

    I am planning to cover their vision and have headphone cables covered.

    They will never know which cables are being tested except that they are just A and B.

    I'll categorize cables into 3 classes: stock, upgrade, and high-end to introduce and ensure confirmation bias.

    They'll use their own equipments, choose their own files, but I'm gonna be the one choosing and swapping the cables.

    I'll let them hear and 'memorize how the cables sound' as long as they want before testing, so that there'll be no excuses.

    The test contains 3 sessions. Each session has its own selections of cables based on the categories I mentioned, the participants will be informed about which categories are being used. 1 out of 3 session will be a lie, that is, the categories used aren't consistent with what they're informed.

    Each session has N rounds, in order to pass a test the listener will have to pass 6 rounds. The two cables in the session will be equally used as X (N/2 per cable).

    A session only ends when
    (1) the listener fails for the first (0.4)N times and he wants to quit
    (2) or when all N rounds are done.

    These tests are conducted like a tournament, if one fails the first session he cannot proceed to the next.

    At the end of the tests for all participants, they will be informed about how the test was conducted.

    Please comment and suggest.. And I havent found a perfect number of rounds (N) yet. Been thinking about N=10
  15. Yuri Korzunov
    Audio memory is short, as rule. I'd recommend real-time switch between samples.

    1. For real-time switch comparison you check sound difference between samples.

    2. Other wise you check [sound difference] & [audio memory].

    You need maximally simplify checks. So case #1 more preferable, as I think. And there is need to check different listening periods.
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