NuForce uDAC-2 Drama (detailed measurements)
Mar 15, 2011 at 1:51 AM Post #151 of 208
 Not to go off topic, but if you think the $129 uDac2 with it's 6 ohm output impedance is bad for sound, then what do you think about the Dacport($400) and Dacmini($800) having 10 ohm of output impedance?  Both are regarded as very good products and are used to drive IEMs enjoyably for many people.
 
 
Mar 15, 2011 at 7:04 AM Post #153 of 208

 
Quote:
I want to stress, for me at least, this isn't the "same old issue" because:
 
  • My uDAC-2 has things wrong with the "listening experience" that are plainly audible without any measurements (channel balance problems, glaring midrange and rolled off highs with my IEMs, and too much gain making half of the volume control range useless).
  • I believe a $130 product should at least offer similar performance to a $30 product when it can only improve and not harm the sound quality.
  • I believe a manufacture's published specifications and marketing claims should be reasonably accurate.
 
The above have little or nothing to do with the "same old issue of measurement versus listening". I don't want to start an endless debate about subjective vs objective. They both have their place and are important and that debate isn't likely to lead anywhere interesting. That's not what my complaints with the uDAC-2 are mainly about.

Ok, these are YOUR opinions. Perhaps you can now move on to the next manufacturer. I am sure you will find spec issues with just about every audio products. The problem as I wanted to point out is also that there is no standard specifications and interpretation of the data. So some manufacturers chose to publish nothing.
I do agree with point #3 above!  And we corrected our SNR number. We also provided more explanation (and caveat) of the channel imbalance issues.
 
BTW, some people asked about our return rate. It is about 4% for uDAC-2, everything included. Since we offer free shipping and never charge restocking fee (our policy did state that there is a 15% restocking fee but we just never enforce it), some people just try out the products for fun. Actually such a return rate is good for business. People get to try it and compare. The refurbished product gets tested, cleaned up and put on sale for 20% discount for some people who want to pay less. 
 
Mar 15, 2011 at 7:53 AM Post #154 of 208
Quote:
The problem as I wanted to point out is also that there is no standard specifications and interpretation of the data.


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Mar 15, 2011 at 10:31 AM Post #155 of 208
Quote:
 Not to go off topic, but if you think the $129 uDac2 with it's 6 ohm output impedance is bad for sound, then what do you think about the Dacport($400) and Dacmini($800) having 10 ohm of output impedance?  Both are regarded as very good products and are used to drive IEMs enjoyably for many people.
 

You can probably guess what my answer is. It's a fact that an output impedance over 2 ohms will create audible frequency response variations that widely differ from headphone to headphone. That's not my opinion, or some wild theory, it's just fact.
 
So if a headphone amp manufacture has an output impedance above 2 ohms, you have to ask why would they want the sound of their product to change in audible and unpredictable ways with different headphones? I can't answer that, you would have to ask the manufacture. We do know how at least NuForce justified the 6 ohm output impedance of the uDAC-2:
 
  • They used lots of words to try and say a low output impedance creates a high damping factor and hence gives headphones "anemic bass" response. And it's true when the output impedance starts to approach the driver's impedance it is likely to change the bass response. But the problem is that "change" is very dependent on the impedance and inherent "Q" (internal damping) of the headphones. It's likely to change the bass in ways the headphone manufacture did not intend. To put it another way, it may help with a few headphones, but it's much more likely to make other headphones sound worse. It could easily give you more boomy uncontrolled "flabby" bass. See below for why.
  • They argued a short circuit might damage the headphone amplifier so they added a series resistor (raising the output impedance) to help protect it. This is a really poor way to protect an amplifier because it has readily audible negative consequences. It's also entirely unnecessary as there are much better ways (many of which are built into the IC's used as headphone amps).
 
The damping of a driver is a delicate balance. Here are the 3 basic choices:
 
  1. Critically Damped (Q = 0.7) - This is widely considered ideal as it provides the deepest bass extension without any frequency response variations or excessive "ringing" (uncontrolled driver motion).
  2. Over Damped (Q < 0.7) - This keeps even tighter control over the driver but at the expense of less deep bass (the response rolls off sooner). So manufactures rarely over damp their products.
  3. Under Damped (Q > 0.7) - This trades off some low bass extension for a peak at higher bass frequencies. The driver is also no longer well controlled and exhibits excessive "ringing" (i.e. it doesn't stop soon enough when the audio signal stops). Under damping typically creates frequency response variations, loss of deep bass, poor transient response. Under damping is a cheap way to provide the illusion of more bass at the expense of the quality of the bass. It's frequently used in the cheapest headphones and speakers to provide "fake bass". Under damped headphones/speakers are frequently described as "boomy", "flabby", "sloppy", etc. This is the sound NuForce is giving you more of.
 
Headphone manufactures have to decide how much damping they want, and they have to factor in the expected output impedance of the source. The "defacto" standard appears to be close to zero ohms. This makes sense as this is the only standard that assures broad compatibility with virtually all headphones. So if headphone manufactures are designing to "near zero ohms" their headphones will perform in ways they didn't intend, and have less damping, with higher output impedances.
 
So if a headphone is designed for ideal damping with a near zero ohm source. When it's connected to a higher impedance source, it will be under damped. By raising the output impedance of their amp, NuForce is generally making expensive headphones behave more like cheap ones with under-damped boomy "fake" bass.
 
Because there are no advantages to over damping, few headphones are over damped by design. Most are either already under damped, or have an ideal Q of around 0.7. So the odds are against NuForce improving bass performance.
 
And most of the above is just talking about bass performance. It's ignoring the sometimes much greater frequency response changes caused by the headphone impedance varying with frequency. Here's the frequency response of the uDAC-2 in blue with the Ultimate Ears SF5's. Some might like the sort of "glaring" broad mid range boost and sharp high frequency "notch" in the sound, but I suspect most would prefer something closer to the yellow line--which is exactly what you'd get plugging those same headphones into the Benchmark DAC, a FiiO amp, or even a $29 Sansa Clip+:
 

 
 
My personal opinion is a lot of amps have an output impedance above 2 ohms because it makes the design easier, and cheaper. It's often likely a matter of taking the easy way out. For the reasons above, it's much harder to argue higher output impedances generally result in better sound.
 
Most of the better, reviewed, higher-end, well respected headphone amps I'm aware of have an output impedance below 2 ohms and often well below 1 ohm. The Benchmark products are just one example. It's also interesting Apple has lowered the output impedance on their products resulting in subjective reviews of better sound quality and wider headphone compatibility.
 
edit: fixed typo
 
 
Mar 15, 2011 at 1:11 PM Post #157 of 208
The level of THD and jitter probley isn't audiable if the udac2 performs better in other areas then i could live with that amount of thd and jitter , speaker and headphones have thd in the 10% ranges so under 1% from a dac isn't gonna make any difference, also analog volume pots sound better than digital volume control, i'd much rather a analog pot to a digital 1 the level of imbalance on the udac2 isn't acceptable though they must have used really cheap badly matched resistors, my fiio e9 also has channel imbalance it disappears at just under a quater of volume , and the e9 has a gain switch and 3.5mm -90db jack so the imbalance is never a issue.
While the levels of THD and jitter aren't audiable, they are higher than alot of other simlar priced and cheaper dacs which would lead me to believe the udac2 isn't aswell designed or made, even if the levels of thd and jitter aren't audiable id still take the dac with the lower values on the biases it's better designed and made and likely to sound better.
 
 
 
Mar 15, 2011 at 1:19 PM Post #158 of 208
I've had the Behringer UCA202 for a while, and the really cheap and awkward design and built quality and mostly the very poor headphone amp SQ were not acceptable.  Also, the DAC section was only 16/48.  Otherwise, it even offered RCA inputs, so feature wise it had even more than the uDac-2 at $100 less.  Thus, measurements aside, between the Behringer UCA202 and the uDac-2, I'd choose neither.  Behringer makes some fantastic monitors though (although not the prettiest) - Truth B3031A and B3030A - with ribbon tweeters and kevlar woofers and tremendously powerful bi-amps.
 
Mar 15, 2011 at 1:40 PM Post #160 of 208
It seems that the prime discussion of this thread is "do measurements matter?" versus "if it sounds good, it is good."
 
But on that note, I just want to say that I did a head-to-head comparison of the uDac2 with just my ears, and I didn't think it sounded very good.  I was using it in line out mode feeding a tube amp, and compared it to: uDac1, Icon Mobile, Lavry DA11, DacMagic, iBasso D10, and M-audio Transit.  My favorites were, in order:
 
Lavry DA11
iBasso D10
DacMagic
M-Audio Transit
Icon Mobile
uDac 1
uDac 2
 
So, long before this discussion came up, I had already decided that I didn't like the uDac2, on sound quality alone.
 
Another thing that bothers me is the justification for distortion that basically says "People didn't think it was loud enough, so we started running it as Full Scale, therefore meeting people's loudness needs but adding THD."  I strongly disagree with this decision.  If it's not loud enough, either add more current by a different opamp, or more voltage by a different battery or power supply section.  Don't run the digital section at full scale in order to get volume.  That is just plain sloppy.
 
Just my two cents,
 
Harley.
 
 
Mar 15, 2011 at 1:44 PM Post #161 of 208

 
Quote:
speaker and headphones have thd in the 10% ranges so under 1% from a dac isn't gonna make any difference


While one can argue if 1% is audible under typical circumstances, it's not true that speakers and headphones all have THD in the 10% range. There are many headphones with distortion well under 1% in the midrange frequencies (and sometimes at nearly all frequencies). There are many reviews to back this up--check out Etymotic for example. The same is true of high quality speakers. The 10% number is rather extreme and usually only below 100 hz at very high listening levels (or for really cheap headphones/speakers).
 
As a point of reference, listening to say the musical note "Middle A" as a pure tone, you can hear even 0.5% THD even with cheap $10 headphones. If you didn't know what the note is supposed to sound like without the distortion it might not bother you. But if you play both of them there's little doubt as to which is more distorted.
 
Jitter is more controversial.
 
 
Mar 15, 2011 at 3:19 PM Post #162 of 208
Yes, 10% THD is a characteristic of the really cheap and low quality stuff.  The Behringer B3031A for example have only 0.1% THD and a nearly flat frequency response - actually EACH speaker has it's own as it is measured individually, rather than using a generic ONE set of measures that "must somehow fit all units of the same model because manufacturing and assembly magically has 0 variances..."
 
Mar 15, 2011 at 3:54 PM Post #163 of 208
Yea i checked my headphone manual it's a bit vague but says thd is 0.1% @ 1khz, my current speaker amp is 0.85% max THD @ 150 watts RMS per channel, i don't know what my speakers are there monitors and sound very clean and accurate to me so possibly there under 1%, i don't think my ears aren't good enough to hear THD under 1% possibly under even 2%. My old 2.1 speakers were rated at 10%THD It's probley the subs that pushed the value so high, they didn't sound great and voices and things weren't accurate.
With actual music and not test tones anything under 1% is said not to be audiable, so unless you want to listen to test tones rather than music you shouldn't worry about anything under 1% THD.
 
Mar 16, 2011 at 1:04 PM Post #165 of 208
nwavguy,
 
when jasonl asked you several times "who are you worked for?", I wanted to reply "for you, jasonl". Really, you increased their brand recognition well with this dispute. I've bought uDAC-2 due this thread just for curiosity, it is soon to arrive.
 

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