[bmichels]

   
I was stunned at the dead silence upon starting my first track.  I heard the singer parting her lips, the slightest tapping, sounds of saliva. OMG, everything caught by the master tape was there effortlessly presented by the Nagra headphone stage.
The Hugo is not in the same league. There were a lot of new information.  The music was liquid, understated, analog.  Like a master tape off a Revox.
 
Tonight, I have been listening again the tracks we played on the Nagra on my Cary, Grace, BHSE, and Stax amps.  They are all not a the Nagra headphone output level.
 
Simply put.  This was a very costly experience for me.

 
What source are yo using there: the NAGRA CD or the Music files from your PC ?  Do you also consider the NAGRA CD a very good CD worth the extra cost ( It is expensive for a CD Player) ? 
 
I am astonished (in a good way) when you say that the internal NAGRA Amp is better than an external STAX or a 5000$ BHSE Amp !!! The internal Amp is a small circuit board lost on the right side of the case ! this is almost incredible !  don't you have the new toy syndrome ? 

 
 
( In fact I can really understand that you get more details direct from the HD DAC than through an external Amp.  I experienced exactly the same feeling listening direct from the TotalDAC compared to through a Cavalli LU.  This make sense since you remove one component in the signal chain. BUT... you do not get the "space" and "volume stage" that a BIG headphone amp can provide. )

 

[goobicii]

   
 
I don't know if you ever seen an electron microscope pic of the difference between Vinyl and CD but its very apparent that analog is continuos whereas digital is anything but.
 
The picture below is of the pits that contain digital data, they are (relatively) far apart far from continuous like the vinyl below it. Our brains pick up the the issues with digital having to stick together the information. Various techniques such as up sampling 'guess' at what's missing.
 
 
 
 

Analog Record Groove
 


 

 
please somebody explain things to this gentleman

 

[paulchiu]

   
What source are yo using there: the NAGRA CD or the Music files from your PC ?  Do you also consider the NAGRA CD a very good CD worth the extra cost ( It is expensive for a CD Player) ? 
 
I am astonished (in a good way) when you say that the internal NAGRA Amp is better than an external STAX or a 5000$ BHSE Amp !!! The internal Amp is a small circuit board lost on the right side of the case ! this is almost incredible !  don't you have the new toy syndrome ? 

 

 
From what I understand, the Nagra HD DAC headphone out has full use of the tube output stage.  Simply turning the gain was an experience in itself.  There was just the right level of resistance, smoothness and precision.  Reminesicent of the knobs on a Revox A77.  At 9 o'clock, that was enough to drive the TH900 for some Bach Toccata & Fugue.  Other lossless tracks were Jazz at the Pawnshop, Streisand, Enya, 中森明菜, and Ennio Morricone.
Each was very much a new experience for me.
 
When you play at loud levels with a Hugo, you will hear distortion and congestion.
With the Nagra, I can go louder (-8db) and the soundstage expands cleanly.  No drama, no confusion.
 
Most tracks were lossless or FLAC through a computer.
I did listened through the Nagra CD player.  It was a tiny bit better connecting the CD to DAC, That would be ideal.
(I can live with just the Nagra HD DAC and the MPS)
 
I am no longer happy with the BHSE and SR-009.  I was told the SR-009 needs the Nagra HD DAC and a MalValve amp.

 

[Music2move]

   
I am happy for you that you found your end game (until something else come on the market...
 
I understand that the EMM Labs XDS1v2 has his own internal DAC, but you prefer to use it as a transport to feed the NAGRA's DAC !  
 
--> Do you consider the HD DAC superior to the internal EMM's DAC ? 

Hi,  Well as always , it depends...Really, thats truthful!  For most of my listening, yes the feed from EMM XDS1v2 via AES/EBU digital Synergistic Research Element CTS into Nagra HD DAC feels to my ears at least, more natural and richly musical, like 4-6 rows from stage in center, though prefer SACD out of EMM Labs as well as some rock, contemporary: these 2 fine machines are very close, really slightly different flavours of fine wine e.g. Burgundy/Pinot Noir.
 
See above posts #93, #95 for details of associated gear, as I have no doubt that the WHOLE system synergy and room play a vital role, as well as amp and speakers, cabling etc.  I am very lucky to have both together, and appreciate it every listening day.
 
BTW, also have Chord Hugo and several IEMs for travel listening, and Hugo is great ( also different with different IEMs ) but no match sonically ( IMHO ) for either Nagra HD DAC or EMM Labs XDS1v2 as DACs,  but again its a different methodology: sounds wonderful with Noble Kaiser K10u as I listening now...
 
Cheers and happy musical ride , M2m

 

[bmichels]

Thanks booth of you for your explanations. I wil reconsider the HD DAC. ( But also Chord DAVE

 

[bmichels]

Paulchiu, what do you mean by "...Nagra CD player. It was a tiny bit better connecting the CD to DAC, That would be ideal." ? Is it OK or... It could be improved. ?

Thanks

 

[paulchiu]

Paulchiu, what do you mean by "...Nagra CD player. It was a tiny bit better connecting the CD to DAC, That would be ideal." ? Is it OK or... It could be improved. ?

Thanks

 
I did not get the chance to try too many CDs.  While the sonic improvements were there with the Nagra CDC as source to the Nagra HD DAC versus iTunes, I cannot justify the cost to consider adding the Nagra CD Player.

 

[arnaud]

Yep, sell the bhse, buy a malvalve or new kingsound portable and spend the rest of 20 grands on the nagra. Sounds like a well thought out plan and makes total sense! Or not , .

 

[PAM005]

Yep, sell the bhse, buy a malvalve or new kingsound portable and spend the rest of 20 grands on the nagra. Sounds like a well thought out plan and makes total sense! Or not ,

.

Dear Arnaud, do you mean KS-H3 + M-03 combo?

 

[paulchiu]

Yep, sell the bhse, buy a malvalve or new kingsound portable and spend the rest of 20 grands on the nagra. Sounds like a well thought out plan and makes total sense! Or not ,

.

 
I have never had the chance to audition the Kingsound system or its electrostatic phones.
Not easily found here in New York.  Have not found them in my travels either.
Is the portable that much better than the Hugo?

 

[bmichels]

Now we have 3 super TOL DAC that offer a very serious Headphone-out :  TotalDac D1 Dual,  NAGRA HD DAC and the CHORD DAVE.
 
 
 
- I tested the headphone OUT of the TotalDAC D-1 Dual, and it was EXCELLENT with a HD800 and also another headfier uses it with his ABYSS !! (on the XLR Balanced output instead of the SE JACK in order to get... 6 volts !!)
 
 
 
- I also tested the headphone output of the NAGRA HD DAC with my LCD-X and is was also excellent.  6Moon recommend it with the HD800. Same for Hifi+.
 
     --> does someone know the specs of the NAGRA Headphone Amp ? Does the internal headphone AMP make usage of the Vacuum tube inside the Nagra ? 
 
 
 
- So, now the question becomes: how good and powerful is the headphone-out of CHORD's DAVE ? Can it drive also an ABYSS to it's full potential  ?  Is it more powerfull than the TT headphone-out ? 
 
  

 

[paulchiu]

The answer is yes on the Nagra HD DAC.
 
Quote:

  Now we have 3 super TOL DAC that offer a very serious Headphone-out :  TotalDac D1 Dual,  NAGRA HD DAC and the CHORD DAVE.
 
 
 
- I tested the headphone OUT of the TotalDAC D-1 Dual, and it was EXCELLENT with a HD800 and also another headfier uses it with his ABYSS !! (on the XLR Balanced output instead of the SE JACK in order to get... 6 volts !!)
 
 
 
- I also tested the headphone output of the NAGRA HD DAC with my LCD-X and is was also excellent.  6Moon recommend it with the HD800. Same for Hifi+.
 
     --> does someone know the specs of the NAGRA Headphone Amp ? Does the internal headphone AMP make usage of the Vacuum tube inside the Nagra ? 
 
 
 
- So, now the question becomes: how good and powerful is the headphone-out of CHORD's DAVE ? Can it drive also an ABYSS to it's full potential  ?  Is it more powerfull than the TT headphone-out ? 
 
  

 

[bmichels]

So, if the NAGRA's headphone amp use the vacum tube, does it has a "mellow tone" sound ? Or analytical instead ? ( compared to using an external big Headphone Amp ).

And is it powerfull enough to drive an ABYSS ( like the TotalDAC ) ?

 

[paulchiu]

So, if the NAGRA's headphone amp use the vacum tube, does it has a "mellow tone" sound ? Or analytical instead ? ( compared to using an external big Headphone Amp ).

And is it powerfull enough to drive an ABYSS ( like the TotalDAC ) ?

 
I have never heard of the TotalDAC unit with headamp out.  Do you have a link or online review for it?
 
Regarding the Nagra HD DAC, this is my 10th month of research into it.  Last month when I listened to it with the TH900, I was not expecting much.  If I did, I would have bought the HD800, LCD3, or ED10 instead.  Those are even more demanding on sources than the TH900.  Still, the TH900 requires a strong amp to sound full and has always been a great rock headphone for me.
When the Nagra HD DAC with the TH900 sounded fantastic even for jazz and vocals, I took notice.
 
 
I took with me the Hugo for comparison and it was like comparing 8 track with reel to reel.  The Nagra was dead silent, the Hugo not.  The soundstage was deftly accurate.  Playing Jazz at at Pawnshop with headphones was wonderful, nearly as good as what I can achieve with near field KEF LS50 speakers at home.
Hugo with TH900 sounded quite labored.
I would compared the sound of the Nagra headamp to ones from my Cary 300B based amp, the BHSE, better than my Stax amps and some other 300B amps.
Those include Thoress and Stax's own 300B pairs.
 
The comparison with the Hugo made me rethink about getting the Hugo TT or even the Hugo Dave as those maybe 2x or 3x the Hugo in price.  I am not sure the sound signature is really going to match the levels of the Nagra.
The power supply for the Nagra cost about the same as the Hugo TT.  It really is a reference piece not too many have a chance to audition.  I was lucky to have tried and unlucky that I cannot forget that Nagra sound.
 
I personally do not like the Abyss sound.  It's one of the TOL cans I still do not have.  The HE1000 and PS1000e are the others.

 

[bmichels]

   
I have never heard of the TotalDAC unit with headamp out.  Do you have a link or online review for it?
 
 
......I would compared the sound of the Nagra headamp to ones from my Cary 300B based amp, the BHSE, better than my Stax amps and some other 300B amps.
Those include Thoress and Stax's own 300B pairs.
 
 
.....I personally do not like the Abyss sound.  It's one of the TOL cans I still do not have.  The HE1000 and PS1000e are the others.

 
- Well, on the D1-Dual and D1-Single, the Headphone out is standard (but "hiden" in the back), and it is quite powerful with 3 volts output (even 6v on the Dual if you wire the headphone out on the balanced XLR line-out): using the "standard" 6,5 mm Headphone out, it was very loud and very good with the HD800.  Theres is NO headphone out on the D1-Tube because the output is too weak (1,4 volts)
 

 
 
- So I understand that the Nagra Headphone out has a very nice sound signature, but... how strong and powerful is it ?  Can it drive a LCD-X or HD800 with ease for example ?   -->  What % of total volume were you using with your TH900 ?  (I also have a TH900 that I love)
 
- Besides the NAGRA headphone-out, I was also wondering if the NAGRA line-out provide a sound "warm enough" to avoid being too analytical or Dry with external AMPS.  Sometime, an excess of precision can lead to "listening to his system" rather than "listening to the music and forgetting the system".  Expecially, I wonder if it will be able to bring some warm to teh VIVA EGOISTA amp which is a highly precise and "viril" Headphone amp ? 
 
 
 
- Now, Regarding the ABYSS, I am like you, I do not like it too much.   May be the Kennerton ODIN may be the ticket for the NAGRA headphone amp ?