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New model Cowon - Plenue D2

Discussion in 'Portable Source Gear' started by tiddlywinks, Jan 1, 2019.
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  1. counterclockwise
    hmm, guess I had forgotten about that part. explains why i need to yank the bass down some more when using it!

    seems like even that part is slightly more complex than a simple high and low boost...

    The BBE system, however, provides a dynamic, program-driven augmentation which combines with the phase compensation feature

    fancy, but why on earth these wouldn't be separate settings is beyond me...
     
  2. castleofargh Contributor
    because if you consider that affecting the frequency response in the analogue domain is basically an EQ with minimum phase filter, you reach the conclusion that anytime a signature changes, phase shifts with it(because physics say so). thus the idea to EQ in the other direction with a minimum phase filter to basically cancel everything. this principle is correct.
    now, full disclosure, that's what I gather with psychic guessing powers when forcing my third eye into the marketing page to try and translate it into non propaganda information. so maybe I'm full of crap and the DSP is a completely different thing. I honestly have very limited confidence here ^_^.
    if I'm right though, different IEMs/headphones won't necessarily have the same roll off starting at the same frequency, or even the same phase response. so I'm not too sure how they determined what setting they should have?
     
    mbphotox likes this.
  3. shigzeo Contributor
    The D2 is clearly louder/more powerful than the D1. It gets about as loud as the Onkyo DP-S, where the original D is just about as loud as an iPhone SE. Huge difference.
     
    mbphotox likes this.
  4. PaganDL
    Hi @shigzeo,

    Just curious, are you just saying this or have you actually heard the difference between PD & PD 2 ?

    Personally & subjectively, PD seems louder to me, especially at lower volume with different head gear.

    Hope you have a great day !
     
  5. shigzeo Contributor
    Why would I be so specific if I had not heard the D and D2 and DP-S1? Louder at lower volume? What does that mean? At absolute volumes, the D2 is much louder. If you're comparing VOL 10 vs VOL10, maybe the original is louder, but that's a volume scale problem, not an absolute output problem.
    I've written this about the new D2 and have written a lot over the hears about the original.
     
    mbphotox likes this.
  6. PaganDL
    Hi @shigzeo,

    No problem, thanks for the clarification.

    Louder at lower volume means what it means, scale & output where hearing is concerned is more or less the same & while splitting hairs is possible, is not an absolute...
    Though I doubt anyone would hear at absolute volume, regardless of source, that would certainly lead to deafness.

    I'm sorry, don't read your blog so weren't aware of your comparison.

    Hope you have a great day !
     
  7. shigzeo Contributor
    I had posted earlier in this thread a few times. There's no reason to read my blog, but if a person makes a claim that is as specific as mine, I would imagine they would have experience with the gear they say they have. What I mean by 'what does that mean' is this: how are you comparing them? The D2 gets louder, has a more powerful amp, but has a different volume scale. It's not 50% louder, but its scale goes 50% higher. You can't compare VOL 10 VS VOL 10. That makes no sense. Nor can you compare VOL 10 to VOL 15 or vice versa. Probably the equate around 13 (D) and 10 (D2), but even at a guess, I'd have to check with a voltage meter or use an external ADC.

    Of course it is only fair to compare at absolutes because scales are arbitrary.
     
    castleofargh, mbphotox and taffy2207 like this.
  8. PaganDL

    Once again, no problem, @shigzeo

    I didn't mean exact db as you say but going by ear, I am well experienced with both units myself.
    As I pointed out in a friendly PSA earlier in the thread where I stated, personally & subjectively PD & PD 2 sound the same sonically which many seem to have an issue with as well as disbelief which is their business.
    Honestly, I don't care less either way.
    So sure, D2 may get louder with the more powerful amp due to that different volume scale to YOU which I have no issue with by the way, your opinion, after all but I am pointing out what I have noticed which is my perogative & contribution.
    So in a sense, it is not a claim as specific as yours but a point of view which is the whole point.

    As a side note, not sure whether you really want to go down a philosophical path but in a continually expanding & contracting infinite universe, there is nothing absolute so scales to a certain extent are necessary, not arbitrary.
    Whether one follows either is another complex philosophical conudrum which has no easy or simple answer.

    That is all I have to say about observations between the PD & PD 2 so I bid you good day !
     
  9. mbphotox
    @PaganDL
    I'm afraid, you have no idea of what you're talking about.

    At the same volume, they have the same volume. That's not based on opinion, but simple physics.
    And by volume, I mean SPL (sound pressure level), not the frigging number you select in the player.

    And the volume he mentions is indeed an absolute value, as in measured by a calibrated measuring device...

    The DP2 has a stronger amp inside, so by definition (again PHYSICS, not opinion or any other BS) can power more demanding headphones and provide a HIGHER volume with identical headphones compared to the DP, because it provides more POWER.
    Again, you must NOT compare the numbers on the display, but the actual measured SPL. Obviously, the difference will only be measurable at very HIGH SPL, because even the DP can feed a pair of 90 dB 600 Ohm headphones at the listening threshold.


    So, please keep your voodoo and "beliefs" out of this discussion.
    If the issue is with language, I'm sorry for my harshness, but I doubt that.
     
  10. PaganDL

    Hi @mbphotox,

    I 'thank you for your observations, it is really not helpful though I understand what you're trying to say.

    There seems to be some miscommunication on both sides, I AM DEFINITELY NOT COMPARING VALUE FOR VALUE, I was in a sense referring to good old SPL as I am listening by ear as one is meant to when using a DAP, not by the db number on the player as you so eloquently put it.
    Measurements mean less than jack to me & honestly doesn't affect how I enjoy sound in anyway.

    Also, sure absolute value is a thing but in the context of said calibrated measuring device with DAP which makes no sense.
    Who would use said measuring device with DAP while the primary purpose of a DAP is for listening, what does measuring whatever measurement prove in a real world context & does it really matter if one is more powerful over the other, really?
    The sound matters at the end of the day.
    I have also run high impedance headphones with the PD at decent sound levels with no issue though realistically, I would still use an amp regardless.

    If you want to get into the nit, sure the D2 has the 'more powerful amp', does it sound like it, no, definitely not but that is my humbly subjective & personal opinion obviously yours differs which is as much valid as mine.
    Not contesting that.
    So tuning & implementation is certainly an important factor here, no matter what the physics say.
    It's like having similar cars with different specs, sure one may have the more powerful engine, better drivetrain, higher gear & torque ratio, the list goes on, etc but if all said & done, implemented poorly or not as well, then in the real world, who will win, surely not the not well implemented car with better stuff, right...
    This is the same with these two DAPs, they are just different to one another despite being similar & one is not necessarily better than the other.
    As far as implementation is concerned, I like both anyway so for me, they really can't be compared in the way most would, especially when it comes down to measuring the things for no real reason than just because though there is nothing wrong with that...

    As a final thought, belief, for good or ill, drives headfi or any forum for that matter, whether that in turn is good or bad, depends on what a person can take.
    What really matters is the REALITY, are we really discussing REALITY or is one of us on a train they don't wish to derail, I leave that up to you.

    So it is certainly your opinion if I know less than a horse but your opinion & welcome to it.

    I honestly don't care either way.

    No further reply needs to be said.
     
  11. castleofargh Contributor
    it's easy to get tricked by the volume setting values because it certainly looks like a reference. except that it usually isn't one, you go from no sound to the maximum output and the designer can cut that range however he likes. he might call no sound 2.75 and max output 1337 or 11, and there is nobody to stop him. that's been well documented here

    :wink:

    it might not seem intuitive to you to rely on the maximum output voltage(which correlates with maximum "loudness"), because you consider that almost nobody will ever listen at the DAP maxed out. and of course if you have sensitive IEMs, you shouldn't try to max out the DAP. but it may be a relevant information for people who plan to use the DAP with "non portable" headphones.
     
  12. PaganDL
    Well said !
     
  13. shigzeo Contributor
    Pagan: An easy fix would be to tell us at what volume level you think the D and D2 meet. Then someone could step in with some calibrated pink noise and an external ADC or voltage meter and we could be done with discussion.

    The D2 is more powerful at all matches output levels: it shows less deviation from the unloaded signal when under load with with any load. You can’t account for personal stories and anecdotes.

    Someone will hear lots of bass and think loud. Another will hear a truncated stereo signal and think ‘wide’ but numbers properly tested and controlled don’t lie.
     
    mbphotox likes this.
  14. mbphotox
    I for one would really like to hear your "matched by ear" audio comparison for myself, because I don't trust my ears to remember the spl from one player perfectly for several seconds.

    So, what volume setting on the PD is the same spl on the PD2?


    Afaik, the scale is linear, but I don't have a source to prove that.
    My DT1350 are at 75 on the PD2 for most of my flac files (headphone mode on), so need quite a bit of power to satisfy me.
     
  15. shigzeo Contributor
    Oh man, the D2 handily outperforms the SPM1000M in hardware tests and at the ear at max volumes: way less IMD, higher DR, and more. What a wonderful player the D2 is. And what a horrible UI and screen and interface speed. Why no bluetooth? Why no WiFi? Whatever. I love it.
     
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