[ford2]

 
Quote:

Nope, sorry but if I'm not mistaken, a bird whispered on my ear last night, that from now on, all manufacturers will be selling the amps at cost, and just for the fun...as their time, materials, knowledge, etc...are completelly irrelevant, as all amps sound alike, right?...

There is a thin line between profit and greed.

 

[Sovkiller]

Quote:

 


There is a thin line between profit and greed.

If one thing I can tell you for sure, is that this is not the case, after all these years dealing with Rudi, one thing I noticed is that he is indeed a very generous person, in his personal life, and in his business, and not only with me...But the way he manufactures is very expensive for him, as it is very labor intensive, mainly all is done manually, and in a country that labor is not cheap at all...Parts and labor tend to be a lot cheaper even here in US (many times I ordered parts for him here)
He tried to move around the manufacture for some time, inside the same European Community, China, and some other countries, to lessen the cost of the manufacture, and everytime he did that, he ended going back to square one as the result was not what he was looking for.
Now with the Linnearossa line, and after owning the W3 and W1, it is the first time I do feel that an outside labor do his designs real justice. Let's see when I received this new XJ, I do have the previous version, and for sure it is one of the best portable amps out there, to the point that I got rid of the rest of the portables (I kept the W3 for the DAC capability mainly) if this one sounds better than the old original one, you will see the old on the for sale forum soon... 
 
But as  general rule I agree with you...You just have to look around, and you will see for example tube designs that in the 50's were popular, and nothing fnacy, and very cheap, and despite the fact that they do sound good, nowadays the same design, in a fancy box, are sold for an arm and leg as an audiophile boutique item...!!!!

 

[winzzz]

Quote:

 


There is a thin line between profit and greed.

agree with you..

 

[ford2]

 
Quote:

If one thing I can tell you for sure, is that this is not the case, after all these years dealing with Rudi, one thing I noticed is that he is indeed a very generous person, in his personal life, and in his business, and not only with me...But the way he manufactures is very expensive for him, as it is very labor intensive, mainly all is done manually, and in a country that labor is not cheap at all...Parts and labor tend to be a lot cheaper even here in US (many times I ordered parts for him here)
He tried to move around the manufacture for some time, inside the same European Community, China, and some other countries, to lessen the cost of the manufacture, and everytime he did that, he ended going back to square one as the result was not what he was looking for.
Now with the Linnearossa line, and after owning the W3 and W1, it is the first time I do feel that an outside labor do his designs real justice. Let's see when I received this new XJ, I do have the previous version, and for sure it is one of the best portable amps out there, to the point that I got rid of the rest of the portables (I kept the W3 for the DAC capability mainly) if this one sounds better than the old original one, you will see the old on the for sale forum soon... 
 
But as  general rule I agree with you...You just have to look around, and you will see for example tube designs that in the 50's were popular, and nothing fnacy, and very cheap, and despite the fact that they do sound good, nowadays the same design, in a fancy box, are sold for an arm and leg as an audiophile boutique item...!!!!

I assure you that my remarks were not against Rudister,but against the whole industry in general.

 

[Sovkiller]

 
Quote:

 

I assure you that my remarks were not against Rudister,but against the whole industry in general.

And I 100% agree with you, I have seen a lot of overpriced items, and when you really look into them, there is nothing to justify the tag...And some of them are not even designed by them...Others are simply a rip off just for the naive that will fall into the audiophile mumbo-jumbo... 

 

[spritzer]

What you are describing is Rudistor to a T.  Designs that are as old as the hills, some of the worst PCB designs this side of the 1970's (ever heard of ground planes Rudi, might cut down on those excessive anti-hum measures such as taping up the pots, switches etc.) with the cheapest components money can buy.  All fitted to cheap, off the shelf chassis and sold at prices to make this crap appear to be high end.  On top of this he releases "new models" which have the same exact PCB as the old "inferior" model. 
 
Ohh and since people were wondering about the portable amp, the last one I saw inside of was just a cmoy with some rechargeable batteries crammed inside a box.  Even the POS Alo Rx is better than that and it is just terrible in every way. 

 

[rosgr63]

Very cheap cases indeed spritzer, how much do you think a RP010B MKII case would cost $20-$50?

 

[winzzz]

its only 78.8 euro actually...and ofcourse im sure rudistor can get much cheaper since he buys in quantity..i bought 2 of them and they gave me 10% discount !
 
and yes its a cheap chasis considering how much that amp costs !!
 
you can get the chasis from modushop http://www.modushop.biz/ecommerce/cat077_l2.php?n=1
 
 
edit : seems like rudistor uses the 3u with 10mm panel so its 96.60 euros...still cheap for an amp that costs almost 5000 dollar back then

 

[spritzer]

Not only are these cases cheap but also badly made.  They are held together with these galvanized metal bars and the heatsinks are attached with french screws (not machine screws).  I used one of these for the first KGSS I ever built and then re purposed it for a Blue Hawaii but then I added a lot of machine screws to secure the heatsinks to the chassis and threw away the top and front panels. 

 

[burnspbesq]

Quote:

 


There is a thin line between profit and greed.

And if you think the price of a particular product is on the wrong side of that mythical line (how you would know that is another story for another time), you are entirely free to not buy it.
 
Can we keep the political silliness out of here please?  That why sites like firedoglake exist.

 

[Jon L]

 
Spritzer, tell'em how you *really* feel

 

[Uncle Erik]

And if you think the price of a particular product is on the wrong side of that mythical line (how you would know that is another story for another time), you are entirely free to not buy it.
 
Can we keep the political silliness out of here please?  That why sites like firedoglake exist.

Actually, the line isn't all that mythical. If you can identify parts in an amp, you can develop a parts list and use several well-known suppliers that pretty much everyone uses to find out how much the parts cost. These suppliers will tell you the quantity price breaks, too, so you'll know how much is saved by buying in bulk.



Next, if you've built a few DIY projects, you can get a good idea of how long something takes to build, and thus calculate labor cost. Further, adding the basic overhead isn't too bad if you've taken some accounting.



Add up those costs and you'll get a rough number of what something costs to manufacture. You won't know for sure, but a range of numbers is OK.



Most businesses would consider a 12% return very good. So if something costs $200 inclusive of parts, labor and overhead, then you could sell it for $225 or $250 and do well.



When profits get into the hundreds of percent, that's screwing a customer. I give businesses a little leeway since I can't see their books and don't know exactly. If someone is getting 20% and I estimated 15%, I don't care too much.



But if profits get into the 300%, 400% or more range, that's anal sexual intercourse without consent.

 

[Sovkiller]

Sound is very personal thing, and I can tell you that I have heard enough, and mostly all of the very top notch amps around to tell you that some of the so call "very good and innovative designs" are nothing more than an bunch of high end parts, in a fancy case, and offering the most sterile sound around...if you have one of these, do yourself a favor, and switch to any other simpler traditional designer, with a proved topology overtime (I'm telling you that, as I burned two CD3K testing some "innovative designs" from other manufacturers) and you will see what sound is about. Sound is not just about a nice ground plane, and a bunch of high end parts and jacks, that go no place other than offer good numbers...BTW the CMoy is very nice simple sounding amp, not sure what the beef is, that is one of the simplest amps with good sound, others a lot more complicated design, sounded a lot worst...Have you seen what is inside the Grado amp, and they do sound good with the Grado headphones, all is about implementation, and how it will be used...As a side note, one of my first amps was a Gilmore design, the V2 done by Justin, it had a ground hum, that was never fixed, after sending it two times to him, and on top of having a few personal issues to get my refund, sorry but I will never go there again...Good design? Probably...Now, a good sound? Very arguable, to me one of the most sterile sounds I have ever heard. And I'm not alone on that, one of our past moderators, a very knowledgeable guy (the old fireman) and long time missed now, stated the best descriptions for that sound, "an amplified audio, but with no soul, completely sterile"....  

 

[Sovkiller]

 
Quote:

its only 78.8 euro actually...and ofcourse im sure rudistor can get much cheaper since he buys in quantity..i bought 2 of them and they gave me 10% discount !
 
and yes its a cheap chasis considering how much that amp costs !!
 
you can get the chasis from modushop http://www.modushop.biz/ecommerce/cat077_l2.php?n=1
 
 
edit : seems like rudistor uses the 3u with 10mm panel so its 96.60 euros...still cheap for an amp that costs almost 5000 dollar back then

Ok, quantity sometimes are on top of 100 cases, Rudi does not buy that much in one shot, for sure, now on top, just try to CNC and engrave/paint this panel with a decent company, that offer reliablity and good time frame, just to you specs, and tell me the numbers now???....Just FYI a front panel can easily increase the cost you to around $70 to $80, or more, each, on top of the case, now add the back panel...have you ever done that? I have, and trust me that is not cheap at all...(for DIY designs not for Rudi) a nicely finished case, easily can cost you $300 USD...the case alone!!! The knobs Rudi uses, are not from the shelf, they are custom made, order from a guy that do them for him, and those are not cheap at all either...Of course that do not affect sound, but increase the costs for him...Europe charge him a lot of taxes, VAT, etc...imported parts are also expensive, in other words, this business is not so simple as many of us think it is, one of the reasons he decided to go alone and distribute himself, was just to save and cut corners that will not affect the sound, as profits and commisions to dealers...Rudi works around 18 hours a day...daily!!! I have sent him an email at 4:00AM his time, and I have gotten an answer instantly, he was awake working!!!

 

[spritzer]

I for one think the amp should be able to drive any headphone you throw at it regardless of music choice or the impedance of the transducer.  The Rudistor amps have appalling damping factor which means no bass control at all. Throw in the quad mono nonsense (the amps drift all over the place but never in in tandem with each other), output capacitor due to the massive DC offset which severely limits power output means these are nothing but boxes full of fail.  No matter what type of amp you'd want (OTL, transformer coupled solid state, transformer coupled tube, DC-coupled SS and the list goes on) you should be getting the best design possible for those operational parameters.  That clearly isn't the case with any Rudistor amps.  When you get better designs from RSA then you know your are dealing with a level of fail which really is hard to comprehend....
 
Ohh and anybody who has had a lot of machining done knows there is no way to spend 300$ on that.  Knobs are a few dollars each, no more.  Now the pure titanium knob I have sitting here on my desk is expensive but that's due to the material and not the machining.