New: Burson Audio Play Amp/DAC (2W@16Ohm) (op-amp rollers dream)
Sep 26, 2017 at 12:55 AM Post #31 of 1,256
Jeeze, then don't get one and let the rest of us enjoy it.

I'm still excited about mine. It will be a major step in the right direction for where I want my home work/game station to go :)

All I'm saying is it needs to have SPDIF input and then maybe if I use a large enough case then I can mount it on the 5.25 drive. I wasn't telling the rest of you to not buy it. I'm pointing out that there's a limitation with how it can work the way they (and you) think it should work.
 
Sep 26, 2017 at 1:14 AM Post #32 of 1,256
All I'm saying is it needs to have SPDIF input and then maybe if I use a large enough case then I can mount it on the 5.25 drive. I wasn't telling the rest of you to not buy it. I'm pointing out that there's a limitation with how it can work the way they (and you) think it should work.

There are always benefits to having a SPDIF I/O on any device, I will agree. That is always a huge plus to anything.

I guess I don't understand what part of my plan won't work. The Play should operate identically to my Conductor Air: external power in, USB signal in, variable line out, and headphone out. I only use my Logitech G533 for 7.1 gaming. Other than that, I only use 2.0 audio through my Conductor Air or my Occulus Rift. My mainboard (Asus X99-Deluxe II) has a 112db SNR Crystal Sound 3 which is supposed to be very good for on-board standards. I've hooked it up once just to see if it works.

Most of the time it is just: Foobar -> Conductor Air -> Cable+ -> Schiit Valhalla 2 -> Fostex T50RP -> :)
 
Sep 26, 2017 at 1:33 AM Post #33 of 1,256
I guess I don't understand what part of my plan won't work. The Play should operate identically to my Conductor Air: external power in, USB signal in, variable line out, and headphone out. I only use my Logitech G533 for 7.1 gaming. Other than that, I only use 2.0 audio through my Conductor Air or my Occulus Rift. My mainboard (Asus X99-Deluxe II) has a 112db SNR Crystal Sound 3 which is supposed to be very good for on-board standards. I've hooked it up once just to see if it works.

Most of the time it is just: Foobar -> Conductor Air -> Cable+ -> Schiit Valhalla 2 -> Fostex T50RP -> :)

It will work that way - ie you still have surround simulation on games - if you don't use the Burson Play for actually playing games (and assuming you're using the USB soundcard that comes with that headset). Which is confusing since it's called "Play." As it is the only way to get virtual surround on it is if it works totally in software and therefore done by the CPU, so that means Razer Surround or games with built-in headphone virtual surround like Overwatch and CS:Go.

Point is, it would have been simpler to ditch the USB input for SPDIF considering:

1. DSP chips on soundcards and motherboards work with SPDIF
2. Games that do everything in software can still work through SPDIF (the only problem is if you're using a laptop that doesn't have a combo 3.5mm headphone and SPDIF optical jack)
3. Consoles use SPDIF optical anyway, and if they have built in surround virtualization, then these will work with the Play
 
Sep 28, 2017 at 1:54 PM Post #34 of 1,256
Last edited:
Oct 1, 2017 at 12:53 AM Post #35 of 1,256
Here is some more information passed along to me by Burson:



Looks pretty impressive. Can't wait till I can get my hands on mine...
 
Oct 1, 2017 at 7:21 AM Post #36 of 1,256
Oct 2, 2017 at 3:37 AM Post #37 of 1,256
upload_2017-10-2_1-19-5.jpeg

Here is a diagram showing the various five op-amps locations and the function they provided. The three dual op-amps are part of DAC chain. The two single op-amps helps drive the output stage. Any further op-amp rolling in the Play I would start with the two single op-amps first.
 
Oct 2, 2017 at 4:01 AM Post #38 of 1,256
Oct 2, 2017 at 4:09 AM Post #39 of 1,256
As someone who has been into audio almost as long as I have been into computers, my perspective is more technically informed about the compromises with integrating these two.




First off, a soundcard and a DAC are not the same thing. A soundcard and an external DAC are similar in many ways but the key feature that makes a soundcard different from an external DAC is that a soundcard has a DSP. Also by "soundcard" that can include on-board audio since effectively the only difference is where it is physically, but as to how they operate, it'll be similar (see below for how this can be a problem). Some on-board and some soundcards though use a combo DSP-DAC chip similar to how smartphones have a combo DAC-(low voltage)HPamp chip and then runs the DSP mostly via software on the CPU.

That DSP can be used in concert with an external DAC. This way DSP features will be implemented on the signal. In most cases all the other DSP tricks are better implemented via software nowadays. Used to be you had to use an EQ on the player app and none for Windows, so your soundcard or on-board audio suite will hadle global EQ. But now there's Virtual Surround. The problem is how this is implemented. DSP on the soundcard doesn't send the sound back after processing it (unless it's an input that has to go somewhere, like if someone talked about what they did to the other player's mother, then that signal has to go through the mic input, ADC chip, then the DSP, then the processor, then out the computer and into the internet all the way to the "noob" with a mother who supposedly gets ridden like the town horse at the other end), which is why hardware DSP typically does not work via USB. Even the ones on the motherboard don't, unless it's fully software implemented like Razer Surround. Even my new laptop can't run Dolby Headphone out via USB, which means it's not totally software but runs on the combo DAC-DSP Realtek chip.

The problem with using this Burson DAC-HPamp with a DSP - whether it's on the soundcard or the motherboard - is that USB bypasses that DSP chip. Which means you can enable hardware virtual surround all you want, you're not getting it, even with a fancy pants motherboard that is 7.1 capable, has digital output via SPDIF, and has drivers for DSP or virtual surround, because this Burson DAC-HPamp only has USB input. You invested on a nice motherboard, which is great, but then you also bought this to drive a hard to drive headphone....but now you need a Razer Surround subscription negating that SPDIF digital output and drivers for DSP or virtual surround on the motherboard that you can't use via USB.

I personally would not use them together, but that's because for a variety of reasons I do not use my gaming rig for reference listening. Primarily because it's noisy - fan noise even at idle is still audible compared to a totally fanless music server. And even with efficient power supplies running efficient CPUs and a GPU at idle, there's still a giant screen I don't need for reference listening. So to get around the need to have a headphone amp or DAC-HPamp at my gaming rig, I just use a headphone that can be driven well enough by a soundcard - high enough sensitivity and high enough but not too impedance - so I won't need the specs of your Burson or this new one to get loud enough on it. And while I'm sure I'm piling on enough distortion even without clipping, high THD is a lot less of a problem when what I'm hearing are MP3 SFX and some guy talking about what he claims to have done with my mother where the really important audio feature anyway is virtual surround.

However what I am pointing out as the problem here is that 1) you can't use its features with that modern motherboard with a built in sound card that is 7.1 capable, has digital out, and has drivers for DSP or virtual surround, because the Burson only takes USB, on top of which 2) it's harder to use it mounted in a 5.25in slot on a chassis when modern PC cases either got rid of that feature or only have them in the interior with no removable covers on the front (ie, they're for only for platter hard drives or reservoir in that form factor, not optical drives or even card readers).





I know it does. My point was that I don't see anybody actually using it that way because 1) modern chassis designs got rid of the 5.25in slots or an external access (and thus use them only as 3.5in HDD caddys) on top of which 2) anyone actually using this with a fullsize computer would likely be using it more as a gamer than a sound producer (since the latter would likely have an interface with the DAC and ADC circuits necessary for recording) which is problematic if for example you want a better motherboard for both overclocking as well as audio, because now the audio bits on the motherboard - even the DSP chip - won't work with the Burson via USB.




There's still going to be considerable bulk in there though. So again, what cases can this be used in? The new Cosmos? Whoops, just lost some radiator spots.

It's a cool option, I really just can't see many people using it that way, and personally the bigger problem still is whether it can work with a motherboard's DSP at least. There's an extra port in there but the blurb doesn't explain what it's for. If it can hook up to PCI-Ex slot then maybe it can use the motherboard's DSP. Maybe.




Except there are two problems. Audiophile sound is more of "very clean signal with a lot of or at least enough excess power to drive a transducer louder with no noise, no distortion, no clipping." Gaming sound is positional audio - whether for competitive games or just for enjoyable immersion.

And in most cases while a good DAC-HPamp can render a soundcard obsolete, not when 1) you can't get virtual surround and when 2) the PC's cooling system renders it as a reference audio transport obsolete. Not even Noctua and BeQuiet! can get around that. It can be out of mind for the most part but if there's a noise floor, there's still a noise floor that can get in the way of how one hears music, especially the bass region, where headphone and speaker drivers tend to roll off, further complicating the problem. On top of which, most modern cases that lock away intake fan noise probably don't have 5.25in slots with access from the outside, so there's that problem again with a cool feature that I can't see being used. The one case that can render Noctua and BeQuiet! obsolete also does not have a 5.25in slot for this device (on top of which, it costs $600, and running costs of ownership can include trips to the chiropractor), but again you'll have to use Razer Surround or whatever is built into the game (so it's gonna suck if you're not exclusively playing games that have virtual surround built in or bought a motherboard with a decent DSP).
As someone who has been into audio almost as long as I have been into computers, my perspective is more technically informed about the compromises with integrating these two.




First off, a soundcard and a DAC are not the same thing. A soundcard and an external DAC are similar in many ways but the key feature that makes a soundcard different from an external DAC is that a soundcard has a DSP. Also by "soundcard" that can include on-board audio since effectively the only difference is where it is physically, but as to how they operate, it'll be similar (see below for how this can be a problem). Some on-board and some soundcards though use a combo DSP-DAC chip similar to how smartphones have a combo DAC-(low voltage)HPamp chip and then runs the DSP mostly via software on the CPU.

That DSP can be used in concert with an external DAC. This way DSP features will be implemented on the signal. In most cases all the other DSP tricks are better implemented via software nowadays. Used to be you had to use an EQ on the player app and none for Windows, so your soundcard or on-board audio suite will hadle global EQ. But now there's Virtual Surround. The problem is how this is implemented. DSP on the soundcard doesn't send the sound back after processing it (unless it's an input that has to go somewhere, like if someone talked about what they did to the other player's mother, then that signal has to go through the mic input, ADC chip, then the DSP, then the processor, then out the computer and into the internet all the way to the "noob" with a mother who supposedly gets ridden like the town horse at the other end), which is why hardware DSP typically does not work via USB. Even the ones on the motherboard don't, unless it's fully software implemented like Razer Surround. Even my new laptop can't run Dolby Headphone out via USB, which means it's not totally software but runs on the combo DAC-DSP Realtek chip.

The problem with using this Burson DAC-HPamp with a DSP - whether it's on the soundcard or the motherboard - is that USB bypasses that DSP chip. Which means you can enable hardware virtual surround all you want, you're not getting it, even with a fancy pants motherboard that is 7.1 capable, has digital output via SPDIF, and has drivers for DSP or virtual surround, because this Burson DAC-HPamp only has USB input. You invested on a nice motherboard, which is great, but then you also bought this to drive a hard to drive headphone....but now you need a Razer Surround subscription negating that SPDIF digital output and drivers for DSP or virtual surround on the motherboard that you can't use via USB.

I personally would not use them together, but that's because for a variety of reasons I do not use my gaming rig for reference listening. Primarily because it's noisy - fan noise even at idle is still audible compared to a totally fanless music server. And even with efficient power supplies running efficient CPUs and a GPU at idle, there's still a giant screen I don't need for reference listening. So to get around the need to have a headphone amp or DAC-HPamp at my gaming rig, I just use a headphone that can be driven well enough by a soundcard - high enough sensitivity and high enough but not too impedance - so I won't need the specs of your Burson or this new one to get loud enough on it. And while I'm sure I'm piling on enough distortion even without clipping, high THD is a lot less of a problem when what I'm hearing are MP3 SFX and some guy talking about what he claims to have done with my mother where the really important audio feature anyway is virtual surround.

However what I am pointing out as the problem here is that 1) you can't use its features with that modern motherboard with a built in sound card that is 7.1 capable, has digital out, and has drivers for DSP or virtual surround, because the Burson only takes USB, on top of which 2) it's harder to use it mounted in a 5.25in slot on a chassis when modern PC cases either got rid of that feature or only have them in the interior with no removable covers on the front (ie, they're for only for platter hard drives or reservoir in that form factor, not optical drives or even card readers).





I know it does. My point was that I don't see anybody actually using it that way because 1) modern chassis designs got rid of the 5.25in slots or an external access (and thus use them only as 3.5in HDD caddys) on top of which 2) anyone actually using this with a fullsize computer would likely be using it more as a gamer than a sound producer (since the latter would likely have an interface with the DAC and ADC circuits necessary for recording) which is problematic if for example you want a better motherboard for both overclocking as well as audio, because now the audio bits on the motherboard - even the DSP chip - won't work with the Burson via USB.




There's still going to be considerable bulk in there though. So again, what cases can this be used in? The new Cosmos? Whoops, just lost some radiator spots.

It's a cool option, I really just can't see many people using it that way, and personally the bigger problem still is whether it can work with a motherboard's DSP at least. There's an extra port in there but the blurb doesn't explain what it's for. If it can hook up to PCI-Ex slot then maybe it can use the motherboard's DSP. Maybe.




Except there are two problems. Audiophile sound is more of "very clean signal with a lot of or at least enough excess power to drive a transducer louder with no noise, no distortion, no clipping." Gaming sound is positional audio - whether for competitive games or just for enjoyable immersion.

And in most cases while a good DAC-HPamp can render a soundcard obsolete, not when 1) you can't get virtual surround and when 2) the PC's cooling system renders it as a reference audio transport obsolete. Not even Noctua and BeQuiet! can get around that. It can be out of mind for the most part but if there's a noise floor, there's still a noise floor that can get in the way of how one hears music, especially the bass region, where headphone and speaker drivers tend to roll off, further complicating the problem. On top of which, most modern cases that lock away intake fan noise probably don't have 5.25in slots with access from the outside, so there's that problem again with a cool feature that I can't see being used. The one case that can render Noctua and BeQuiet! obsolete also does not have a 5.25in slot for this device (on top of which, it costs $600, and running costs of ownership can include trips to the chiropractor), but again you'll have to use Razer Surround or whatever is built into the game (so it's gonna suck if you're not exclusively playing games that have virtual surround built in or bought a motherboard with a decent DSP).
guys pcie sound card usually having lot of emi interference form motherboard.graphic card,power supply thats why burson did a sound card wihch is completely enclosed and uses usb connector for data transfer actually my ASUS RAMPAGE V EXTRME EDITION 10 has ASUS SUPREME FX HI-FI DAC the same hardware and works like charm which asus launched in 2016 and i use burson opamps so out of curiosity predorered PLAY they offered 15% for old customers
 

Attachments

  • IMG_20170927_152614 Edited.jpg
    IMG_20170927_152614 Edited.jpg
    725.5 KB · Views: 0
  • IMG_20170927_152627 Edited.jpg
    IMG_20170927_152627 Edited.jpg
    421.1 KB · Views: 0
Last edited:
Oct 2, 2017 at 8:36 AM Post #41 of 1,256
guys pcie sound card usually having lot of emi interference form motherboard.graphic card,power supply thats why burson did a sound card wihch is completely enclosed and uses usb connector for data transfer actually my ASUS RAMPAGE V EXTRME EDITION 10 has the same hardware and works like charm which asus launched in 2016 and i use burson opamps so out of curiosity predorered PLAY they offered 15% for old customers

And apart from Razer Surround, how does one use virtual surround on games that don't have headphone virtualized surround built in?
 
Oct 2, 2017 at 10:23 AM Post #43 of 1,256
since play dosent offer virtual sound their circuit design is to operate in pure Class-A

1. You very clearly missed my point about why SPDIF is necessary, regardless of what potential noise levels soundcards and motherboards tend to have, especially on a product named "PLAY" with the bonus feature of - surprise! - being able to fit in an old case or newer workstation case along with all the other noise generating stuff (without a pure copper chassis protecting it). Oh and it will run pure Class A in the air path going to the CPU. Would have found SPDIF more useful for gaming with a product named "PLAY" than pure Class A.

2. There really is no link between not having virtual surround and operating in Class A apart from Burson making such an amp but forgetting that DSP chips work via SPDIF. Which was my original point about it having a limitation for everyone who plays anything but CS:GO, Overwatch, etc. At best the link is about cost but again, I'd pay a few bucks more to have SPDIF input on it. And no RCA inputs either, so I can't use line out from a soundcard, again to use DSP.
 
Oct 4, 2017 at 2:04 AM Post #44 of 1,256
Hi Guys,

So I'm going to be the first tour stop in the UK and Burson have asked me to put this up:

Invitation to Play:
Burson is offering fellow head-fiers a chance to trail the Play in return for their evaluation and photos.
  • 1 unit of PLAY will circulate among UK based Head-Fiers.
  • 2 units of PLAY will circulate among Head-Fiers in the USA. (we'll expand the program to include other countries when these two become manageable.)
  • Each of the PLAY sample pack includes one set of V6-Vivid and one set of V6 Classic opamps.
  • Head-fiers will have a trial period of one week and then he/she must cover the cost of sending the sample pack to the next Head-fier.
  • We do not encourage reviewers to fit the PLAY into their PC case as the installation process could damage the cosmetic of the sample unit. Also, installing it into a PC case will make it difficult to roll opamps.
  • The reviewer needs to commit to sharing his/her evaluation and photos with fellow Head-fiers in this discussion thread.
How to Play:
Please express your interest by posting the below information onto this thread.
  • Your city of residence and country. (please don't disclose your real name and full street address)
  • A list of your current audio equipment and headphones
  • A photo of your audio system
  • Once a week, Burson will select and announce the next round of reviewers and PM each one for delivery details.
 
Oct 4, 2017 at 3:45 AM Post #45 of 1,256

Here is a diagram showing the various five op-amps locations and the function they provided. The three dual op-amps are part of DAC chain. The two single op-amps helps drive the output stage. Any further op-amp rolling in the Play I would start with the two single op-amps first.
Seems like I can use 2 same opamps for each “LP” slot
 

Users who are viewing this thread

Back
Top