New Beyerdynamic T1 (2nd Generation)
Mar 18, 2016 at 8:03 PM Post #1,186 of 3,669

upstateguy

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I didn't describe anything.
 
All I did was Retweet what a Benchmark engineer posted about using a balanced amp with headphones.  This was before the industry giants realized how much money there was to be made by using the volume exploit.
 
Maybe the real dummies in your scenario are the folks, who despite having all the pertinent information, are never the less duped by a greedy industry out to make money by promoting a topology for headphones that was designed for long cable runs in studios?
 
In doing all this re-posting I noticed something that might account for the subtle difference that has been reported between Balanced and Single Ended.  Elias Guinn said, "Damping factor is the ratio of speaker (load) impedance to amplifier (source) impedance."  What we know is that (1) going "Balanced" doubles the source impedance, doubles the distortion and doubles the noise and (2) that increasing the impedance, increasing the distortion and increasing the noise changes the sound.  (All of which probably doesn't matter if the levels are inaudible to begin with.)  Anyway, it's just a guess.
 
"To create low-distortion headphone response, one must consider 'damping factor'. A high damping factor will control the response of the speaker, thus preventing the physical impedances from dictating frequency response. Damping factor is the ratio of speaker (load) impedance to amplifier (source) impedance. In other words, the best damping factor will result from a low source impedance."

this is interesting. Lots of balanced amps have such low output impedance that they already have a very high damping factor. I wonder if the changes we hear are damping factor or otherwise. I have A/B'd my single ended and balanced output of the Geek Pulse a few times, and in my best attempts at volume matching, I perceived a difference. I preferred the balanced, however, I believe the Geek only uses the DAC in dual mono when being fed into the balanced out, so maybe there's also another difference there. Also it is good to know that not everyone here believes everything they read on a forum, and can do some deeper research 

 
PM sent
 
Mar 18, 2016 at 8:46 PM Post #1,187 of 3,669

nordkapp

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[COLOR=0000FF]"All of these cables are available through Bryston’s Website (www.bryston.com) or our dealers if you wish."[/COLOR]

Tremendous lack of interest after seeing a sales pitch.


Seems like a pretty pragmatic, scientific approach to the cable debate, which is why I posted it for you. Your response to it is nothing less than what I had expected. Lighten up bro.
 
Mar 18, 2016 at 9:05 PM Post #1,188 of 3,669

upstateguy

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Seems like a pretty pragmatic, scientific approach to the cable debate, which is why I posted it for you. Your response to it is nothing less than what I had expected. Lighten up bro.

 
Unfortunately, with all the sleaze and snake oil around I don't pay much attention to information from anyone who wants to sell me something.
 
But look, this issue has wasted enough bandwidth already.
 
Anyone who hasn't gotten the picture by now is not going to get it.
 
If you want to discuss the cable debate you'll have to post in Sound Science where there are people who have actually tested and measured cables.
 
In the meantime, I'll send you a PM.
 
Mar 19, 2016 at 8:51 AM Post #1,189 of 3,669

plakat

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Regarding your earlier questions @upstateguy : I did not check the balanced cable with a SE to balanced adapter, but as @Peridot said, the cable itself is identical (according to my information from Beyerdynamic as well). The V281 uses 4 amps in its output stage, so its actually a design just like the Benchmark guy described as having inferior measurements (and he's correct with that assessment). As I said before, I do not have a real explanation for me liking the T1.2 better that way, except for maybe added coloration. I still think balanced is a possible way to go for power hungry headphones, nothing more. Interestingly I always loved the Benchmark headphone amp in the DAC2 (the HPA2 mentioned in the quoted article), its really excellent, very powerful and clean.
 
To me the quote from the Bryston representative by @nordkapp sounds reasonable and not like a sales pitch. I see no harm in him mentioning that they offer the cables for sale that they themselves use, it does not sound like 'you should only buy our cables', but more like 'we selected these according because..., you might like them as well'. Since the selection criteria are clear and detailed, its possible to go look for yourself.
 
Yes, overal this has not muc hto do with the T1.2, besides the puzzling effect of maybe having a bit different signature se vs. balanced. I do not have the means of going after this in a more scientific way (i.e. get two V281 units, level them exactly, get a second T1.2 and compare) and I do not intend to try otherwise. As it is, I simply like the old T1 better (with which I did not hear such a difference btw.), I have so many other headphones... I'll simply grab another pair :wink: The new T5p is one I use much more often than the T1.2. With their respective first generations it was the other way round...
 
The more I think about it, the more I believe that it might indeed be a bit less damping, more distortion in the bass that helped me with the T1.2 balanced... a bit like the modification Sennheiser made with the bass in HD800S. I have no problem admitting that I don't always like the more correct system better...
 
Mar 19, 2016 at 4:37 PM Post #1,190 of 3,669

upstateguy

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  Regarding your earlier questions @upstateguy : I did not check the balanced cable with a SE to balanced adapter, but as @Peridot said, the cable itself is identical (according to my information from Beyerdynamic as well). The V281 uses 4 amps in its output stage, so its actually a design just like the Benchmark guy described as having inferior measurements (and he's correct with that assessment). As I said before, I do not have a real explanation for me liking the T1.2 better that way, except for maybe added coloration. I still think balanced is a possible way to go for power hungry headphones, nothing more. Interestingly I always loved the Benchmark headphone amp in the DAC2 (the HPA2 mentioned in the quoted article), its really excellent, very powerful and clean.
 
To me the quote from the Bryston representative by @nordkapp sounds reasonable and not like a sales pitch. I see no harm in him mentioning that they offer the cables for sale that they themselves use, it does not sound like 'you should only buy our cables', but more like 'we selected these according because..., you might like them as well'. Since the selection criteria are clear and detailed, its possible to go look for yourself.
 
Yes, overal this has not muc hto do with the T1.2, besides the puzzling effect of maybe having a bit different signature se vs. balanced. I do not have the means of going after this in a more scientific way (i.e. get two V281 units, level them exactly, get a second T1.2 and compare) and I do not intend to try otherwise. As it is, I simply like the old T1 better (with which I did not hear such a difference btw.), I have so many other headphones... I'll simply grab another pair :wink: The new T5p is one I use much more often than the T1.2. With their respective first generations it was the other way round...
 
The more I think about it, the more I believe that it might indeed be a bit less damping, more distortion in the bass that helped me with the T1.2 balanced... a bit like the modification Sennheiser made with the bass in HD800S. I have no problem admitting that I don't always like the more correct system better...

 
If you don't mind I'm going to skip the balanced stuff and the subtle cable promotion and ask you what about the original T1s you like better than the T1.2s?  Would you be able to go into some detain on this?
 
Mar 19, 2016 at 5:15 PM Post #1,191 of 3,669

roamling

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I own these headphone a couple of months now and i can say, best headphones ever owned.... Super comfortable and the stock cable is excellent. Running these on a Beyerdynamic A20 headphone amp, just has the same power as the the A2 and is more than enough to drive these headphones. With the the Beyerdynamic T90 headphones i had before the A20 was still to "loud" with compressed music but the the T1 the volume control on the A20 hits the sweet spot. 
 
Mar 19, 2016 at 5:20 PM Post #1,192 of 3,669

Peter Hyatt

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  I own these headphone a couple of months now and i can say, best headphones ever owned.... Super comfortable and the stock cable is excellent. Running these on a Beyerdynamic A20 headphone amp, just has the same power as the the A2 and is more than enough to drive these headphones. With the the Beyerdynamic T90 headphones i had before the A20 was still to "loud" with compressed music but the the T1 the volume control on the A20 hits the sweet spot. 


Well said.  These are a 'buy it for life' headphones.  Wonderful.  
 
The A20 amp is very smooth, too, and seems suited for the headphones.  
 
Mar 19, 2016 at 5:37 PM Post #1,193 of 3,669

plakat

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If you don't mind I'm going to skip the balanced stuff and the subtle cable promotion and ask you what about the original T1s you like better than the T1.2s?  Would you be able to go into some detain on this?


To me the old T1 simply has more character (which I can understand not everybody loves). Yes, treble is smoother on the new one... I had no problem with the old one though. And I do think the 2. Gen. has a rather wide ranging, slight elevation in the upper mids/lower treble region, which makes me miss some sparkle that the old one had, giving voices a just too present touch for my taste. Maybe just a bit too smooth overall... Again, I think the new signature may reach a wider audience. Still I see that I do not reach for it, while I returned to the old one again and again.
 
Mar 20, 2016 at 12:33 PM Post #1,194 of 3,669

Aradea

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Guys,
 
So I've never heard a T1 before, whether its gen1 or gen2. I do however, have heard a T5P (1st gen I think) just a few days ago. Playing it via my Xduoo X3 (boy the T5P is very efficient!)
 
So I'm mainly a Senn guy, had an HD600 in the past and I have an R70x right now (not too different from HD600/650).
 
In my opinion, the T5P are much more transparent/clear than the HD600/R70x and quicker in presentation (some call it more musical). The weight of the presentation was not too different between the HD600/R70x and the T5P with the former just a little bit more meaty I think.
 
Now, as I have got a baseline of what Beyer cans sounds like, in the T5P (although briefly), how is the T5P compared to the T1 (especially the 2nd gen)? Since the 2nd gen is said to be warmer, I'm leaning towards it rather than the 1st gen.
 
My preference will always be neutral with a bit of warmth.. I don't like cold sounding headphones as in my opinion something that is too neutral has no "soul" in presenting the music.
 
Appreciate the advice!
 
Mar 20, 2016 at 12:42 PM Post #1,195 of 3,669

Synthax

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  Guys,
 
So I've never heard a T1 before, whether its gen1 or gen2. I do however, have heard a T5P (1st gen I think) just a few days ago. Playing it via my Xduoo X3 (boy the T5P is very efficient!)
 
So I'm mainly a Senn guy, had an HD600 in the past and I have an R70x right now (not too different from HD600/650).
 
In my opinion, the T5P are much more transparent/clear than the HD600/R70x and quicker in presentation (some call it more musical). The weight of the presentation was not too different between the HD600/R70x and the T5P with the former just a little bit more meaty I think.
 
Now, as I have got a baseline of what Beyer cans sounds like, in the T5P (although briefly), how is the T5P compared to the T1 (especially the 2nd gen)? Since the 2nd gen is said to be warmer, I'm leaning towards it rather than the 1st gen.
 
My preference will always be neutral with a bit of warmth.. I don't like cold sounding headphones as in my opinion something that is too neutral has no "soul" in presenting the music.
 
Appreciate the advice!

 
I've been listenig to all. I also have had R70x - indeed not much different from HD650 (which I also have had).
No i have T1 V2. T1 are better in every aspect. Better sound stage. More refined hights, better clarity. Maybe the bass is in bigger amount in T5p but the quality and texture is better in T1.
For now having T1 V2 i do not see any reasonable alternatives in dynamic headphones. T1 are also close to Stax sound tonality in 007. of course T1 inferior overall to 007. 
 
Mar 20, 2016 at 1:12 PM Post #1,196 of 3,669

Aradea

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I've been listenig to all. I also have had R70x - indeed not much different from HD650 (which I also have had).
No i have T1 V2. T1 are better in every aspect. Better sound stage. More refined hights, better clarity. Maybe the bass is in bigger amount in T5p but the quality and texture is better in T1.
For now having T1 V2 i do not see any reasonable alternatives in dynamic headphones. T1 are also close to Stax sound tonality in 007. of course T1 inferior overall to 007. 

 
Thanks!
 
When I listened to the T5P, there was a bit of sibilance in the upper midrange (the end of a female vocal has the "ssshh" extension - which is unnatural for me if it hurts my ear). Do the T1 have the same upper midrange extension? or is it more refined?
I do like the clarity of beyers, I just would like to eliminate those irritating "ssshhh". And hopefully the notes (low-mid-high) have a good weight and definition.
 
Oh yeah, I intend to pair the T1 with my BH crack.. so hopefully will be a great synergy
 
Mar 20, 2016 at 1:50 PM Post #1,197 of 3,669

Synthax

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Thanks!
 
When I listened to the T5P, there was a bit of sibilance in the upper midrange (the end of a female vocal has the "ssshh" extension - which is unnatural for me if it hurts my ear). Do the T1 have the same upper midrange extension? or is it more refined?
I do like the clarity of beyers, I just would like to eliminate those irritating "ssshhh". And hopefully the notes (low-mid-high) have a good weight and definition.
 
Oh yeah, I intend to pair the T1 with my BH crack.. so hopefully will be a great synergy

Bottlehead seems to be OK for T1 V2
Generally Beyers tend to expose upper midrange. But T1 are most refined and less sibilance than any of new Teslas.
But with tubwe amp it should not be a problem.
 
If you somehow find the T1 higher midrange to offend, try to mod it a bit with tiny selfadvesive felt cap:
 

 
Mar 21, 2016 at 11:24 AM Post #1,198 of 3,669

ostewart

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UK people who own the T1 2nd Generation, did you all buy from an official reseller, or has anyone bought from Temptation-Hifi from Ebay?
 
As they list them for £599 which is way below the retail, and they seem to be shipping from Australia.
 
If anyone has a pair from this seller, please message me as I have some questions.
 
Thanks for your help!
 
Mar 21, 2016 at 12:54 PM Post #1,199 of 3,669

MortenB

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New member checking in  :)
 
I just bought a pair of these from HiFi-Temptation on eBay (can't wait for them to arrive). It's says in the add, that all items he is listening are in stock located in Cambridge, UK.
 
What makes you think they are shipped from Australia?
 

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