New Audio-gd R7 (R2R 7) & R8 Flagship Resistor Ladder DACs
post-14413863
Post #2,686 of 6,462

Chopin75

500+ Head-Fier
Joined
Feb 8, 2018
Messages
874
Reaction score
173
Location
York, PA
Joined
Feb 8, 2018
Location
York, PA
Posts
874
Likes
173
Pinkfaun i2s is stuck at pcm 32/192 X_X. It is great with R2R7 and i Can recommend it all day long
It is a shame that Pinkfaun has non DSD output. I have searched all over for a music server that output I2S DSD but there is only Magna Hifi 's and theirs only does DSD64 over DoP . THere is the Sonore that did a I2S that coudl do DSD128, and that's it. Anyone knows of music server doing I2S DSD??
 
     Share This Post       
post-14413864
Post #2,687 of 6,462

Whitigir

Headphoneus Supremus
Joined
Oct 14, 2013
Messages
21,201
Reaction score
17,819
Joined
Oct 14, 2013
Posts
21,201
Likes
17,819
It is a shame that Pinkfaun has non DSD output. I have searched all over for a music server that output I2S DSD but there is only Magna Hifi 's and theirs only does DSD64 over DoP . THere is the Sonore that did a I2S that coudl do DSD128, and that's it. Anyone knows of music server doing I2S DSD??
Actually, the true Direct i2S is limited to 32/192Khz. That is because the chip C-media can only do so much. This is what Pinkfaun offers, the best from Direct I2S.

There are others such as cayin S5 or Aune whatever. However, those are rather DDC into I2S. In a senses, they use XMos to convert the Digital into I2S signal, and with this, they can output DSD1024. But it is not true Direct I2S
 
     Share This Post       
post-14413866
Post #2,688 of 6,462

Chopin75

500+ Head-Fier
Joined
Feb 8, 2018
Messages
874
Reaction score
173
Location
York, PA
Joined
Feb 8, 2018
Location
York, PA
Posts
874
Likes
173
Check this out - a DAC just for DSD, perhaps this is something needed for DSD?
I wonder if audio-GD uses similar technique ? The software used may be different.

Ratzov Tsenkov - Audio Design – Pure DSD Converter
http://www.rtaudiodesign.com/w/products/dacs/pure-dsd-converter/


I can't paste its web now, for some reason.

2 reviews, of interesting read, one explains why there are clicks when changing DSD files, which I get if a jumping from one album to another:

https://www.tnt-audio.com/sorgenti/rt_audio_pure_dsd_e.html

https://www.monoandstereo.com/2017/04/rt-audio-design-orpheus-pure-dsd-dac.html
 
     Share This Post       
post-14413873
Post #2,689 of 6,462

Chopin75

500+ Head-Fier
Joined
Feb 8, 2018
Messages
874
Reaction score
173
Location
York, PA
Joined
Feb 8, 2018
Location
York, PA
Posts
874
Likes
173
Actually, the true Direct i2S is limited to 32/192Khz. That is because the chip C-media can only do so much. This is what Pinkfaun offers, the best from Direct I2S.

There are others such as cayin S5 or Aune whatever. However, those are rather DDC into I2S. In a senses, they use XMos to convert the Digital into I2S signal, and with this, they can output DSD1024. But it is not true Direct I2S
I see, so really there is no way to do direct I2S DSD, what a shame. If it is DDC to I2S then there is no difference with using Singxer DDC, or better F1 board. I wonder if it is technical issue or Sony is still holding back on releasing DSD easily, trying to continue to sabotage its own invention. DSD downloads was only allowed in 2011 but by then PCM rules even if records have been done in DSD.
 
     Share This Post       
post-14413876
Post #2,690 of 6,462

Whitigir

Headphoneus Supremus
Joined
Oct 14, 2013
Messages
21,201
Reaction score
17,819
Joined
Oct 14, 2013
Posts
21,201
Likes
17,819
That is some misleading information on DSD interface. Again, Xmos is a DSP (digital signal processing), and as long as you need it, you are using DDC (Digital to digital conversion). May be someone else can explain better to you. However, Altera inside the r2r7 shall be taking care of DSD processing at very high speed
 
     Share This Post       
post-14413879
Post #2,691 of 6,462

Whitigir

Headphoneus Supremus
Joined
Oct 14, 2013
Messages
21,201
Reaction score
17,819
Joined
Oct 14, 2013
Posts
21,201
Likes
17,819
I see, so really there is no way to do direct I2S DSD, what a shame. If it is DDC to I2S then there is no difference with using Singxer DDC, or better F1 board. I wonder if it is technical issue or Sony is still holding back on releasing DSD easily, trying to continue to sabotage its own invention. DSD downloads was only allowed in 2011 but by then PCM rules even if records have been done in DSD.
That is correct, and no. There is no technical issues. It is that there has not been any market for Direct I2S interfaces yet. Therefore, no companies are going to push the technologies. XMoS is different, it is being used in many products and so it keeps on evolving. Especially with the latest market blooms when every Audio equipments are pushing USB interfaces. The newest XMOS U216 can do DSD1024 easily.
 
     Share This Post       
post-14413910
Post #2,692 of 6,462

Chopin75

500+ Head-Fier
Joined
Feb 8, 2018
Messages
874
Reaction score
173
Location
York, PA
Joined
Feb 8, 2018
Location
York, PA
Posts
874
Likes
173
Y
That is correct, and no. There is no technical issues. It is that there has not been any market for Direct I2S interfaces yet. Therefore, no companies are going to push the technologies. XMoS is different, it is being used in many products and so it keeps on evolving. Especially with the latest market blooms when every Audio equipments are pushing USB interfaces. The newest XMOS U216 can do DSD1024 easily.
I see, well hopefully if the market expands, there may be hope. But then perhaps the USB tech is getting so good that it is fine to do DSD via USB. It can also easily do surround that way. And Yes I do know the Xmos DSP board, and you mean that board will convert the DSD digital signal to I2S? I understand that chip sends I2S signals directly to the DAC chip in a DAC.
 
     Share This Post       
post-14413926
Post #2,693 of 6,462

Whitigir

Headphoneus Supremus
Joined
Oct 14, 2013
Messages
21,201
Reaction score
17,819
Joined
Oct 14, 2013
Posts
21,201
Likes
17,819
Y

I see, well hopefully if the market expands, there may be hope. But then perhaps the USB tech is getting so good that it is fine to do DSD via USB. It can also easily do surround that way. And Yes I do know the Xmos DSP board, and you mean that board will convert the DSD digital signal to I2S? I understand that chip sends I2S signals directly to the DAC chip in a DAC.
Yes, that is correct. At the stage of after Xmos, your DSD 1 bit signals becomes 2-4 bits PCM, or you can call it DOP (DSD over PCM). However, the Xmos will display an output of Native DSD as it is takin in and processing Native DSD format. This Multibit DOP will then feed directly into your DAC (by I2S language). It depends on the DAC processing speed to process these Multibit DOP signal into the original DSD signals again (at this stage, your DSD becomes 1 bit again, so manufacturers claims you are doing Native DSD). When devices do DOP, it is just simply that your source is sending DOPinstead and Xmos will just by pass it. However, some people choose to do Native DSD as they believe Xmos is much better in sound quality than any other things, which I also agree.

Precisely, the DSD Native is being converted to get over the bridge connection and then merged to become one again at the DAC stage, and then your DAC will bypass it into analog lowpass filters. During the processing of rejoining the DSD signals, your DAC can apply DSD filter, or not to.

Because of this step, the power demand for such processing speed is very high according to the load. Then DSD1024 is even more demanding.

Ultimately, the only correct way to do DSD is to not getting it over the Multibit Bridge at all.
 
Last edited:
     Share This Post       
  • Like
Reactions: Chopin75
post-14413949
Post #2,694 of 6,462

Chopin75

500+ Head-Fier
Joined
Feb 8, 2018
Messages
874
Reaction score
173
Location
York, PA
Joined
Feb 8, 2018
Location
York, PA
Posts
874
Likes
173
Yes, that is correct. At the stage of after Xmos, your DSD 1 bit signals becomes 2-4 bits PCM, or you can call it DOP (DSD over PCM). However, the Xmos will display an output of Native DSD as it is takin in and processing Native DSD format. This Multibit DOP will then feed directly into your DAC (by I2S language). It depends on the DAC processing speed to process these Multibit DOP signal into the original DSD signals again (at this stage, your DSD becomes 1 bit again, so manufacturers claims you are doing Native DSD). When devices do DOP, it is just simply that your source is sending DOPinstead and Xmos will just by pass it. However, some people choose to do Native DSD as they believe Xmos is much better in sound quality than any other things, which I also agree.

Precisely, the DSD Native is being converted to get over the bridge connection and then merged to become one again at the DAC stage, and then your DAC will bypass it into analog lowpass filters. During the processing of rejoining the DSD signals, your DAC can apply DSD filter, or not to.

Because of this step, the power demand for such processing speed is very high according to the load. Then DSD1024 is even more demanding.

Ultimately, the only correct way to do DSD is to not getting it over the Multibit Bridge at all.
Thanks so much for the detailed explanation. I think what they meant by native DSD is not being converted to PCM entirely via DAC, and that can be quite confusing.
So from what you said, the DSD signal becomes DoP over USB which I understand must be the case due to the nature of the USB, and then it can either be converted via DDC externally (like SIngxer SU) or internally at the USB board (amenero or F1) into I2S. Well I thought I2S always or at least can carry as native DSD, not DoP, but from what you said it still travels as DoP until it reaches the DAC DSP board ?
I think something like Playback design sends out true non-DoP DSD via their own connector to the DAC, PS Audio does something similar but only via SACD player I2S output.
 
     Share This Post       
post-14414502
Post #2,695 of 6,462

Wynnytsky

500+ Head-Fier
Joined
Apr 16, 2012
Messages
606
Reaction score
302
Location
Morristown, NJ
Joined
Apr 16, 2012
Location
Morristown, NJ
Posts
606
Likes
302
Website
127.0.0.1
PS Audio does something similar but only via SACD player I2S output.
I fed my friend's Direct Stream DAC hdmi i2s with the SU-1 and it was way better than it's own USB input.

Pinkfaun i2s is stuck at pcm 32/192 X_X. It is great with R2R7 and i Can recommend it all day long
This is the reason why I wouldn't use HDPlex's low-profile heat-piped case for my own next audio computer. I want to have enough clearance to drop in that board.
 
     Share This Post       
post-14414613
Post #2,696 of 6,462

Chopin75

500+ Head-Fier
Joined
Feb 8, 2018
Messages
874
Reaction score
173
Location
York, PA
Joined
Feb 8, 2018
Location
York, PA
Posts
874
Likes
173
I fed my friend's Direct Stream DAC hdmi i2s with the SU-1 and it was way better than it's own USB input.


This is the reason why I wouldn't use HDPlex's low-profile heat-piped case for my own next audio computer. I want to have enough clearance to drop in that board.
I suspect the reason why some USB inputs are bad is because there is no galvanic isolation on the USB input board, if I12S is what was discussed to be DDC to I2S from computer anyway. PS Audio has SACD that directly sends I2S so obviously that is a different ballgame/implementation but if you feel the PS audio Direct stream's I2S is much better than USB then the conclusion likely is its USB is not good. It has been designed mainly to get signal from I2S (from SACD), or maybe it is being cheap and not put a nice USB board in. (unless they have a superior I2S implementation?) But then a $6000 machine (if that is the one I am thinking of ??) should have decent USB input. It was also maybe an older machine too. As far as I know, among the R2R DACs, both Schiit and Audio-GD has really great USB input with galvanic isolation. Schiit actually does not need USB because they don't do DSD but then most of us output via USB from computer. Apparently their USB board is so good that there is little difference between AES/SPDIF and USB, though I think Currawong should be able to comment or critique on that since he owns (or has owned it).
 
     Share This Post       
post-14414622
Post #2,697 of 6,462

Whitigir

Headphoneus Supremus
Joined
Oct 14, 2013
Messages
21,201
Reaction score
17,819
Joined
Oct 14, 2013
Posts
21,201
Likes
17,819
I fed my friend's Direct Stream DAC hdmi i2s with the SU-1 and it was way better than it's own USB input.


This is the reason why I wouldn't use HDPlex's low-profile heat-piped case for my own next audio computer. I want to have enough clearance to drop in that board.
Use Streacom and the adaptor. This is what I use, and it is fine for audiopurposes even when upsampling on the fly DSD512
 
     Share This Post       
post-14416074
Post #2,698 of 6,462

Benny-x

1000+ Head-Fier
Joined
Jan 6, 2010
Messages
1,093
Reaction score
202
Location
Canada/China
Joined
Jan 6, 2010
Location
Canada/China
Posts
1,093
Likes
202
Pinkfaun i2s is stuck at pcm 32/192 X_X. It is great with R2R7 and i Can recommend it all day long
If onnnnnnnnnly Pink Faun would make a PCIe DSSD512 capable I2s card... Sad days on that front :frowning2:

And it's the T+A DAC 8 DSD that you were mentioning above about the native DSD. However, it uses 2 completely DACs. I think they're using 4x Wolfsons for the PCM conversion and 4x custom 1-bits for their DSD. Don't quote me, but I do know they're not using the same DACs for both types. There are a couple other DAC makers that take this approach; Lampizat0r is one that I can remember.

Anyway, good luck with getting the R2R7 to do DSD512. I really wish Pink Faun would come around and release a new PCIe I2s card, but my hopes are pretty low on that front :frowning2:
 
     Share This Post       
post-14416242
Post #2,699 of 6,462

Tango Sierra

Head-Fier
Joined
May 6, 2018
Messages
82
Reaction score
52
Location
Rural North Central Illinois
Joined
May 6, 2018
Location
Rural North Central Illinois
Posts
82
Likes
52
Started reading this thread about three or four weeks ago and by the time I reached Page 100 I bought a used Singularity 7 (Actually a Master 7 that was upgraded). After burning in for 120 hours I took the top off and found jumper pins on S2 and Bypass which means NOS Mode 3 and Bypass active. I'm 71 years old but stuck in Hi-Fi mentality from 30 to 40 years ago so most what I've been reading in this thread is going over my head so please excuse a newbie question or two.

Under what circumstances would I want Bypass active?

Since I went over budget for this purchase it will be a few months before I can add upgrades like better USB and power cables. After those upgrades what do you recommend I add to improve the sound? I mainly listen with Audeze LCD-X headphones and a 40 year old Soundcraftsmen Preamp/Equalizer for my headphone amp. I eventually want to get a Master 9 for headphone listening.
 
     Share This Post       
post-14416392
Post #2,700 of 6,462

Whitigir

Headphoneus Supremus
Joined
Oct 14, 2013
Messages
21,201
Reaction score
17,819
Joined
Oct 14, 2013
Posts
21,201
Likes
17,819
If onnnnnnnnnly Pink Faun would make a PCIe DSSD512 capable I2s card... Sad days on that front :frowning2:

And it's the T+A DAC 8 DSD that you were mentioning above about the native DSD. However, it uses 2 completely DACs. I think they're using 4x Wolfsons for the PCM conversion and 4x custom 1-bits for their DSD. Don't quote me, but I do know they're not using the same DACs for both types. There are a couple other DAC makers that take this approach; Lampizat0r is one that I can remember.

Anyway, good luck with getting the R2R7 to do DSD512. I really wish Pink Faun would come around and release a new PCIe I2s card, but my hopes are pretty low on that front :frowning2:
It is not Pinkfaun faults, but it is the market fault. There is no demand for direct PCIE I2S interface. Therefore, the market leading company (C-Media) is not developing that chip that allow DSD512. Thereotically speaking, it can do whatever, just as long as this chip is capable, even DSD1024
 
     Share This Post       

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 1)

  • Mr G
Top