Neutrality And The Chain Of Command

[baka1969]

I've wondered this for a long time. Is there even such an animal as true neutrality?

I think, at least as far as listening to music, in part, it's what we all strive for. Maybe. I mean, is it really?

I read all the discussions going on about what we all like and prefer. Some want warmth. Others resolution. Some want impactful bass. Some lean toward aggressive forward presentation.

The question then is, what is neutrality? Is it even achievable? Should it be?

The simple answer would be to build a system that perfectly reproduces the artist's music. Period. Is THAT even possible?

Would we even like the result?

I say although it may be possible to build such a system, few, if any, would buy the result?

Dynamic vs Stax. Tube vs solid state. Copper vs Silver. Dome vs horn. Preamp/mono block vs integrated.

There are so many permutations that there just can't be a correct answer. Every link in the chain from the type of music to the medium it's recorded to the playback to the source, cables... etc.. Down to the ear are all variables. Every single one effects the sound characteristics of music. One effects the other. Replace one link with another (say your dynamic headphone choice) and the result differs. Sometimes dramatically.

I've been reading about electrostatic speakers and 'phones thinking they might be the 'grail'. If Stax are perfect, then why the different sound characteristic within the genre? Of course there are other variables within also as I mentioned. I walked away thinking that they're just another option to listen to and enjoy music.

Is there neutrality? I really don't know. But the discussions are entertaining. Listening to music on the world of equipment choices and trying to find out is even more enjoyable.

 

[Golden Monkey]

Yeah, you can't even get true neutrality with live music...the venue itself plays a huge part in the sound. It's frustrating trying ot build around transparency and neutrality, that's for sure. I tried, and just got a system that didn't move me...so I went for tubes, and now I'm enjoying th emusic once again and not listening to gear.

 

[Bones13]

Not sure if this is truely possible.

Even when hearing live music many factors can affect neutrality :

1) hang over quotient of the performers
2) ambient air quality, and humidity level
3) road crew competence

... well I was getting sillier, but I agree that true neutrality is probably not achievable with electronics. Folks even hear things differently than the person sitting next to them.

I would think that you can create a system that sound "neutral" to you, and can serve as a benchmark for other equipment for your personal neutrality. Your same neutral system may be entirely colored to someone else.

I consider all the different discussions of equipment to be relative to the poster, and their personal experience. I have been able to relate to the relative quality of the SQ in different items, and some of the general terms - bright, warm, muffled etc. But I think that all equipment colors the sound in some fashion, some a little, some a lot.

 

[Duggeh]

Quote:

Originally Posted by baka1969 /img/forum/go_quote.gif I've wondered this for a long time. Is there even such an animal as true neutrality? I think, at least as far as listening to music, in part, it's what we all strive for. Maybe. I mean, is it really? I read all the discussions going on about what we all like and prefer. Some want warmth. Others resolution. Some want impactful bass. Some lean toward aggressive forward presentation. The question then is, what is neutrality? Is it even achievable? Should it be? The simple answer would be to build a system that perfectly reproduces the artist's music. Period. Is THAT even possible? Would we even like the result? I say although it may be possible to build such a system, few, if any, would buy the result? Dynamic vs Stax. Tube vs solid state. Copper vs Silver. Dome vs horn. Preamp/mono block vs integrated. There are so many permutations that there just can't be a correct answer. Every link in the chain from the type of music to the medium it's recorded to the playback to the source, cables... etc.. Down to the ear are all variables. Every single one effects the sound characteristics of music. One effects the other. Replace one link with another (say your dynamic headphone choice) and the result differs. Sometimes dramatically. I've been reading about electrostatic speakers and 'phones thinking they might be the 'grail'. If Stax are perfect, then why the different sound characteristic within the genre? Of course there are other variables within also as I mentioned. I walked away thinking that they're just another option to listen to and enjoy music. Is there neutrality? I really don't know. But the discussions are entertaining. Listening to music on the world of equipment choices and trying to find out is even more enjoyable.

I think that there is neutrality, what I have more of a problem with is the word natural, not neutral.

Also, seriously, do something about that stupid large signature.

 

[Golden Monkey]

Indeed.

 

[ericj]

There's no hard and fast definition of neutrality, but there are relative levels of neutrality for sure.

 

[baka1969]

Sorry about my sig. I need a lesson in HTML. Anyone that can help me, please PM me.

As for the topic, I agree with most of what's been said. And I appreciate the differences that various audio equipment present. Even amoung the same manufacturers.

 

[gradesm]

I feel most people have very diverse definitions of neutrality. Not only due to how we perceive sound but also based on character and what catches your attention.

What I mean is for a certain track, person A may by default focus on the guitar while person B may focus on the drum beats for instance. If a certain phone puts more emphasis on the guitar, it may sound neutral to person A but not B.

 

[ciphercomplete]

I can't stand neutrality

Give me some tubes. lol

 

[baka1969]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ciphercomplete /img/forum/go_quote.gif I can't stand neutrality Give me some tubes. lol

Now that's a refreshing truth in advertising! LoL

 

[catscratch]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ericj /img/forum/go_quote.gif There's no hard and fast definition of neutrality, but there are relative levels of neutrality for sure.

This.

After you've heard many different types of presentation, and spent many years attending live events, you start to cross-reference the two and hear what sounds closer to live then what doesn't.

Still, there are so many colorations added into the sound in the process of mastering that whatever the system adds to it could be a moot point, assuming that the system is a good one in the first place. On a reasonably uncolored high-end system the original character of the recording will come through pretty much all the time.

Also, AFAIK, headphones ignore HRTFs, but the psycho-acoustic machinery in our brains is still compensating for them while we're listening to headphones. That means that the same sound out of the same headphones is subject to very different mental processing in different people, and the result is that headphones really do have a subjectively different sound from one listener to the next. So, when it comes to headphones, tonality and the like has to be taken with a grain of salt. Objective truth, in regards to tonality, can only come from people with similar hearing to your own.

That's not to say that I subscribe to audio relativism and claim that all music reproduction is a matter of preference, because that's rubbish. There are objective standards for audio reproduction, and disregarding them on the grounds that they are all a matter of preference is dangerous.

In the speaker world, this is much easier. Objective measurement is possible and FR measurements are accurate for all listeners. Of course, then you have room interactions, which headpone people don't have to deal with...

It does make for some good discussions.

 

[mow_the_hawk]

Neutrality is impossible. Transparency is not. There will always be variables you can not change in the sound. For example the mics and board it is recorded with can have an effect. The way the person masters it. What Speakers/Headphones they use. They can mix it so it sounds neutral to them on their system. When it hits your system however, it may not sound neutral at all. Also as said above, people the same exact thing differently.

However, transparency can be achieved. You can build a system that sounds exactly what it is meant to be straight from the CD. Then as also said before, naturalness is even harder to define. I would define it as anything that sounds "right" to you. I'm sure everyone here knows that felling where the music is just perfect.

 

[baka1969]

[BOLD] Quote:

Originally Posted by catscratch /img/forum/go_quote.gif Still, there are so many colorations added into the sound in the process of mastering that whatever the system adds to it could be a moot point, assuming that the system is a good one in the first place. On a reasonably uncolored high-end system the original character of the recording will come through pretty much all the time.

[/BOLD]

Coloration. Reasonably. Pretty much. That's not neutral.


[BOLD] Quote:

That's not to say that I subscribe to audio relativism and claim that all music reproduction is a matter of preference, because that's rubbish. There are objective standards for audio reproduction, and disregarding them on the grounds that they are all a matter of preference is dangerous. In the speaker world, this is much easier. Objective measurement is possible and FR measurements are accurate for all listeners. Of course, then you have room interactions, which headpone people don't have to deal with...

[/BOLD]

Also, different types of equipment will effect the objective measuments. You can't use lab results and relate them to real-world experiences. Too many variables.

[BOLD] Quote:

It does make for some good discussions.

[/BOLD]

Every link in the chain will add it's own personality to the music it's trying to reproduce. And that's why there are Audiophile hobbyists.

Some of the most highly regarded (and expensive) audio systems use tubes. Cipher has it right. At least he knows he likes distortion.

 

[Planar_head]

Tubes have their place...

Admittedly, transparency is possible, "liveliness" is possible, in-your-headness is possible, but neutrality is a silly goal. Too many different recording sounds to adjust for all of them. I guess you could achieve neutrality if you built a system around a single album (or perhaps even a single song), and adjust your system for that.

Oh, I like tubes for thier spectacular soundstage. Tell me if you find a transparent DAC that does that soundstage and I'd be all over it

Off Topic: I say we make a small sigs team.

 

[baka1969]

With all the tubey love, I just wanted to state my preference for Solid State. I like the crystaline ability (in quality equipment) to pull details out of the music. But even the best equipment adds it's own character to the music you play through it. If you compare the AKG 701 vs the Senn 650 vs the Grado RS1 you'll hear something different in each.

And if you look at the Appreciation Threads of each, there's plenty of love for all of them.